So welcome to this week's episode of The Freedom Fridays podcast. This week, I have a lovely guest with a fantastic personal story, which I'll leave her to share if she wants to. But Emma is an entrepreneur, a business owner, is deeply immersed in most of the change work that clients want to experience. So I'm looking forward to hearing some of her insights. So Emma, welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having me. Good to see.
You're welcome and you too. Emma we normally start with a very broad and open question around freedom, so that's, that's where I'll start. In the work that you do, with the clients that you work with, what do you see people are seeking freedom from or to?
Yeah, okay, great question. So the work that we do, just building on your intro there is, you know, principally around change management, business transformation, and looking at businesses operating models and figuring out what is missing or needs to be tweaked and changed from a organisation design perspective. And, in in each of those, the golden thread that I see people seeking freedom from, is capacity.
Ok, they haven't got the capacity?
They don't have the capacity, they want to change, they know they need to change. They see opportunity, or they see underperformance they see waste, whatever it is that the issues that they see, I can still boil this down to, we want to have more capacity in our work, in our people. And that is a really stark difference. That's what they want. But what I see is it's a hugely starked difference to where they are. And what I see in workplaces is the complete opposite of capacity. And that is overwhelm. Like the level of overwhelm in work is just wild. And so yeah, I guess that's where I would start.
Okay, great start. Um, let me ask you a couple questions, then. Because I'm similar. And I see some of the symptoms of that, too. When when people refer to capacity. What did what do you think they mean? And what actually is capacity?
I don't even know if they recognise that the capacity is the opportunity. I think they see, I typically have two types of clients, I can boil them down to only two types. There are the client that knows what the problem is, what they want to do about it, and they just either they either don't have the capacity within the organisation themselves to do it, or they don't have the specialist expertise. So they're able to be really clear with me about the solve and the need. The other example or type of client that we have is they know there is an issue, but they are just swimming in how do we fix it and distilling the things, let alone how to kind of get how to kind of step through and getting there. The latter obviously takes a longer time for them to come to the realisation that the opportunity is capacity. In the former, again, I would say that they don't necessarily lead with capacity. They're leading with probably more business metrics right there, whether it be financial, whether it be health and safety in terms of well being overwhelm, stress, employee turnover, underperformance, presenteeism, all of those other kinds of people metrics that we see.
The usual suspects. I've mentioned to many people, and it's it may be a sad indictment on all of the work that we do our work in general, that people are usually that the cause of and the solution to most of the problems that we have. So in a capacity perspective, is where my head went when you mentioned capacity was, you know, a little bit like this glass. There's a capacity within the glass. If this is 300ml, whatever it is, if you pour more than 300ml of liquid into the glass, you're going to be over full. And I wonder if what they mean by capacity is their version of the glass, which for me will be things like time, energy, attention. There seems to be a lot of people trying to do too much with too little, or being asked to do too much with too little. And I haven't got the time, there's always more work to be done at the end of the day. And I haven't got the energy at five o'clock, but I have it at 9am. And I haven't got the attention because I've been bombarded with 25 number one priorities. So my capacity, from a time, energy and attention perspective is just restricted. So I might have might have a 300ml glass, but I'm only pouring in 10ml.
Yes, indeed. And I think it's quite a tricky conversation to have with a prospective client, shall I say. Whether they want to embark on a change, because they need to improve - change, grow, whatever it might be. And my pitch to them is that you're not going to get freedom and capacity, you're not going to fix your level of overwhelm by time management. Right, like this, you have to apply deeper systems thinking and really go through a pretty comprehensive, or this is the work that we do right design, to be able to get into the roots of your operating model to see what parts you know, we basically need to start, stop, keep, change. So that we're only working on five things instead of 15 things because that's when your freedom and your capacity improves and your overwhelm comes down. Or when it comes to or they might be further along in the journey, we often come in with a client whereby they've embarked on a transformation, whatever it might be, and they're in it, they're really overwhelmed. They're totally burnt out. They're trying to run this transformation at the same time managing BAU, particularly if you're a manager and middle managers or even, you know, other true tomatoes in the sandwich, right. They - oh I've lost my train of thought - they the work that we need to do with them is further on my train of thought.
That's all right. That's all right. Let me pick up another observation, then. I wonder the extent to which people say capacity is the issue? Is that a space thing? As in headspace? Diary space? And I think if that's part of it, then the irony is I observe people don't when they've got space, they fill it anyway.
Yeah, they do. I mean, most people will. I've observed that most people think about capacity in a bit of a sort of Whack a Mole, right? So you know, fix it here, but it just pops up over there. And fixing it by time management or is is shallow. To come back to what I was trying to get out before around there partway through perhaps a transformation or an agenda. They're completely overwhelmed already in there in that what what we call the strategy execution piece. And they that there's there's, there's an insufficient level have we focused on the why we need to change more than the what? So I've got a great big vision strategy, but they're having difficulty executing it because they haven't focused or haven't built out sufficiently the detailed in state. So they're working on a change, but the kind of building that I think everyone's really familiar and overuses that you expression, let's build the plane while we're flying. to LA, we don't have any capacity. We wonder why we feel tired to our, to our jobs and can't get home to our families
are here all the time? You know, you know, we're going to build the plane while doing BIA, you know? So question for you then in the work that you do, is it even feasible? Or is that just a turn of phrase that ignores the problem? Is it possible to fly the plane? Well for build the plane one? And if it is possible, how do people do that?
Look, I think it is. And I will say yes, it is. The I think in the sort of 10 or 15 years that I've been playing in this space, that probably only handful of businesses that I've seen, succeed, have done a step called Change design or architecture, before they go into planning mode. And change design. And architecture. ng is more than just a scope. It's more than the strategy, but very much goes into the detail, clarity and state of the what. So that when it comes to your planning, and your communicating, and ultimately your execution and your adoption of of it all, you you're very clear on what you're moving towards. Because you've you've articulated it right, and you can't get lost in the ambiguity because you're working towards it, you might you might not be enjoying it. You might not want to move to that particular endpoint, but at least you know it. And there's freedom in knowing in having that level of clarity. And that also inherently makes it wet. And it doesn't matter whether you're a leader or an employee in that scenario, right? You're either the leader that's guiding the organisation and your team through it, you're an employee on the receiving end of it. And yet, you might not like it, but at least you know, and then we talk about, well, what being more important than why not to say that why isn't important absolutely is. But what will get you further along and be able to, I guess juggle those tension points of okay, I'm flying. I'm working a job at the moment. That's an aeroplane with three wings. But I know that in the future, I'm going to be working a job, that's an aeroplane that's only got two wings, because I've got the level of detail. And I know the steps and I know the tactics that I'm going to take, and I know what the expectations of me are before I even need to get there.
Right? Is that a bit overwhelming?
I see the beep. Is that overwhelming? Yeah.
Because you mentioned that what you what they say they want is capacity, but what you observe is overwhelmed. Yes. Is that what the overwhelm is?
Um, look, I think, the overwhelm I don't think I personally deduce all of the reasons why people feel overwhelmed. I see I see it as a consistent thread. Even if they're not working a transformation agenda, and I might just be overwhelmed by the reality of the work the work environment of life, life pressures, living in a world that circa 2022. So the threat of overwhelm is, is rife, but the reasons for that overwhelm, I think, are really many and varied.
Okay. Are there any usual suspects in those reasons for overwhelm?
Oh, look, time is a big one. And that misalignment of expectation management, you know, like trying to do more with less. I think certainly, I've observed in people different mindsets will affect it as well. So if you've got a slightly more closed mindset or a particular way of work You'll get yourself, you'll feel like the back your backs against the wall faster than someone that's, you know, open to chance and opportunity and age. Yeah.
And you have counsel for only one team or organisation that kind of gets the idea. They have to, you know, balance, you know, ways of working building the plane whilst still doing the business to have any counsel on what you've observed. Some of the better teams, how they go about balancing those things, knowing. And this would be my particular view, it's never necessarily in balance. But it's the toggling between that's consistent. So you might be over indexing on Bau one month, but we're back to indexing a little bit and building the plan the next month and back and forth. It's that that toggling any thoughts on that and any, anything you can share from the some of the best clients you've worked with in terms of how they how do they balance those things?
Yeah, I like that term toggling. And I, it resonates in that. Yeah, I've absolutely seen organisations and leaders be able to move between the two. At different points. The I think there's something about having a, the, the businesses or the organisations that are seemingly better at it, people and organisations that have pretty firm boundaries.
Okay, could you share I mean, without revealing any confidential and an example of that,
I'm just about what people or organisations are willing to take on at certain points in, in the in the cycle or juncture. So that can apply at both a personal and a professional level, right? At a professional level, that might be the ability, you're addeptness with being able to delegate certain parts of your your remit so that you've got different tension points, or might be a more of an enterprise level, you're the addeptness and being able to, you know, know where different programmes and projects of work are in their lifecycle and knowing when you need and having the wisdom of experience in being able to lean in where you need to where you need to be really boots on the ground, and then other periods where you can delegate and step back on a personal level. boundaries around how you manage, you know, home and family life and how strict you are between work and home, on both sides, right, that the ground rules you set up with your family, but also the ground rules you set up with your work families, so you can get that coherence. But it's a constant dance, as you say.
Yeah, it is. I see a lot of people who, probably for some of the right reasons and some of the wrong reasons. Probably taking on too much. Yeah. Because they're asked to, they feel they have to, because I can't say no, because there'll be consequences, I'll lose status, I'll lose position, I'll lose something. And so they grow five mile wide shoulders. And they take on lots and you know, we know the consequence of that, you know, trying to please everyone you PLEASE NO ONE taken on too much nothing gets done. And I don't know how much of it is an insecurity thing. I don't know how much of it is a people pleasing thing. I don't know how much of it is not having firm boundaries of self, of family, of work, of home or, you know, these, this idea of firm boundaries. Have you got a view on that?
Yeah, I do. Well, I've gotten an experience on it maybe more so than to get into my MO The person rather than number eight consulting the business in the work that we do. So I started my business when I moved to Adelaide, about four ish years ago, but prior to that lived in Sydney, and, you know, held a number of in house roles, working in you know, the sort of large corporates, and I loved my life in Sydney, it was freaking awesome. But at a certain point in time, I knew that I had a really decent amount of even though I really love my life and my work I got paid handsomely. You know, an enviable resume of companies that you know that I'd work for. I somehow kind of had this last little moment, whereas I'm still on a hamster wheel. It's a golden hamster wheel, but I'm on a hamster wheel. And I had enough kind of, my guess self confidence to be able to go, I reckon I can get off this hamster wheel and tap out for a bit and still be able to be able to get up, get back on it at whatever point and it's not going to railroad my life. Like, it's not going to you know, and I did, I took, I stepped away from my life in Sydney, my work, went overseas for six months, came back to Australia. You know, serendipitously moved to Adelaide, that's a whole nother story. And eventually kind of started the business. And the thing that I kind of quickly knew was that I could, what I'd learned and the experience that I'd held in Sydney, didn't really exist in the marketplace here in South Australia. So I knew in due course, even though I was creating a business out of thin air, and no networks, which is definitely one of the most stupidest things I've done in my life, keeps the stupid things that eventually as my network grew, and my visibility grew, that I'd sort of bubbled to the surface. And that's absolutely exactly what's happened. The, in that, in that journey, what has happened is that I've, as I've grown a stronger sense of myself as an individual, what I do and don't like what I do, and don't stand for what I will and won't do in a work setting. You know, the service offering we do this, you know, like, that's been a really, I'm just gonna say organic process even could have been quite strategic about it, or just kind of let it come to now I've got these amazing boundaries and sets of kind of clarity as a result of that, and I never would have had had I never if I you know, if I was still back in corporate life, I'm sure of it.
Interesting. You mentioned you were on the, like the expression the golden hamster wheel. What do you reckon at the time you were seeking freedom from to four years later? Is it the same? Or have you recognise it's something different you were seeking freedom from, but you could only see it when you were detached from it?
Yeah, um, when I, well, my decision making process and frame of mine, four and a half or five years ago was I'd worked my whole life and I've worked really hard. I, I was raised by parents that taught me to believe that hard work will get you will get you where you need to go. And was probably only in the last maybe four or five years of my in house. Career or chapter of my career, that I got the feedback enough times that I was like, oh, I need to pay attention to this that actually, it's not just about working hard. And that was a bit of a slap in the face, actually. Right. And because I'd probably got pretty far by working hard, much further than what I probably personally had an expectation of myself to. So you know, taking a break from work was the kind of ultimate cornerstone of, let's go and let's do this smarter. Let's leave. Let's live life smarter. And I think because I've worked really hard and for a very long time and I've never done my you know, a year abroad when I was 20 years, plenty of people do I really needed to get that out of my system. When I got back to Australia, and more recently, though, the my brain is can you repeat the question again? I know what I want to say I just can't remember. Yeah,
I was talking about you mentioned that you found yourself on this golden hamster wheel. Yeah. As well paid. You were kind of good at it. Yeah, but working hard. Yeah. At the time, what did you think you were seeking freedom from to get off it?
Yep.
And four years later, is it still the same freedom that you're seeking? Or has it changed? Because you're four years detached from the golden hamster wheel?
Yeah. So what I was seeking freedom from originally was how to truly get away from hard work. I think if I'm really honest with myself, how to work smarter. I'm, you know, in a really crude sense, it was more than that, but like, if I just kind of boil it down to brass tacks, okay. Now, yeah, it's changed massively. I think that I very much in body living and working smart. Really love my work life in that regards. The reality of running your own businesses, there's, oh, like mountain of stress and pressures and challenges that no one gave me the tip off on. My goodness. So, you know, I'm just in a completely different chapter, you know, flooring, freedom in and trying to get freedom in other ways. Yeah,
I can ask for a friend. And because I know someone very well, very close to me, who uses hard work as as his default of trying to get out of almost every hole that he finds himself in? What's involved in working smarter?
Um, what's involved in working?
Do you have like a, you have a playbook or, you know, a framework rules to live by? You know, do you have some principles that, you know, Mr. Fraser's principles around how she has found her way to working smarter? Not necessarily harder?
Yeah, I think there's some things that are probably automated within a business on a personal level. So, you know, I used to try and apply willpower to do exercise, whereas now, it's scheduled in my diary, right? And I just go and I've never really thought about whether or not I should go or not, I just go. Or I don't I've simplified my wardrobe. So don't overly think about, you know, like that. There's lots of things that we make decisions on that we're really conscious that we're making decisions on. But actually, they just cloud and they add, so much takes energy away from? Yeah, that's right. You know, I've got an amazing assistant that feels very foreign to give admin tasks to and she has to still, and I've not mastered it, like she still, you know, I have a checking meeting with her, you know, at least once a week. And she's like, right, can I take this away from you and this away from you? And he's like you, I still can't, because I still feel that I can do them myself. Even if I've got time. She's like, No, that's not a good use of your time, though, even if you do have the time. Yeah. So that, that notion of like trying to stay at the level of which you're trying to operate, and anything that's below that level, then or above whatever the kind of preference frame is, that you're not doing that particular piece of work, so you can stay focused on the bit that is actually most bang for your buck. If I'm thinking about the client work that I do, you know, like I don't, I don't have overly loves managing people. But I was really lucky, really early in my work, probably about midway through my, I'm gonna say maybe about maybe eight or 10 years ago, I truly learned Yeah, of what it is to work as part of a team where the sum of the parts are way more powerful than the individual contributors. And for anyone that's had that experience, it is chef's kiss it is there's so much joy and freedom that comes from that. And so if I think about the way that our business model works is when an end client engages us, we will create a team specifically for that, that client that's actually that's how you and I met each other Pete went on borrow, right we create a team that's targeted and specific for the client. And when I when I do that, the I'm I'm really looking to work with people that are in their genius zone. So all I need to do is put the work in front of them and get out of their way. Of always I've been really fortunate to be able to I surround myself, I think nine times out of 10, with people that are way smarter or more experienced than me. And so that so that I can stay out of their way and that they can do the work that they can do. But there is there is power in that some of the parts and coming together. So again, like it's another example where I'm not not needing to manage something that I don't even find joy in doing. And then it's taking away from my energy and or is hard work, right? Yes, I've kind of, I don't know, got to go looking for them a little bit. But there's a few examples.
So again, maybe a personal reflection on me, then, about me is I have I find myself regularly getting stuck. And I don't know, it's probably a combination of a lot of is it ego? Is it expertise? Is it insecurity? Is it confident? Whatever it might be that the client wants me? Yep. And I don't know, to what extent actually, is it me? Who wants the client? So I don't allow space for anyone else? Because I'm insecure, whatever it might be. Have you found that you know, you get the client contact, you get the opportunity, and they meet Emma for the first time that Emma's awesome? Yeah. Who's this? I don't want this Pete guy. I want Emma. So have you come across that machine that you have? And then how do you navigate that? When either you do or you don't want to do the work but you know, probably longer term, the boundary needs to be in place, there can always be you.
Yeah, I probably have always, well, Touchwood. The, I don't think I've ever gone into a client scenario where I'm presenting the business as just me. So I will always be presenting here again, Touchwood, nine times out of 10, a group and a group of people that are working on clients problem. And that will play out in maybe two or three ways. One is whereby I end up doing all the work and you know, I've got the bandwidth to then you know, no problem, happy days. The other scenario is whereby I'll be, I can see that there's particular packages of work that the client need that require particular level, particularly subject matter experts. So I'm positioning, a particular type of change consultant that might be around communications might be around stakeholder engagement, they might have a bent around mergers and acquisitions or operating model design, whatever it may be. So I'll put that person front and centre on that particular that particular part of the project that we're working on. And then maybe the third scenario is I'll position myself as the engagement manager, so I still, I still own and manage and run the relationship with the client, and manage and run the team. But the team are doing the work. Right.
I've got a long way to go.
It's a trial and error. Sound, possibly sound more confident in all of that. And
one thing I'm interested in, if you would share your view, it's often quoted, and I think it's quoted erroneously. And it seems to be quoted by the change firms where 70% of change efforts fail. Yeah, I don't know where that figure comes from. I've done no one can seem to point to it. It's like out of failure, because it means you have to engage in another change from to the work of simply presenting and field. Two questions, is it true? And does it matter if it's 70% or 63? Does it you know, is it true? Does it matter? And secondly, to make it work, then if someone's going to engage in transformation? What are some non negotiable things that have to happen to give them at least a chance of success?
Okay. Yes, it's true. It could be 60. Could be 95. But yeah, I've seen in US client examples to where they're running, you know, multiple changes or programmes and they're just not getting through Right. They they're just not. I think, probably what is what is skewed is that it's not complete failure. Yeah. And it it's the if we use the 70%, is, it's that you haven't got your complete return on investment. That was expected. That was expected. You saw, I think it would be, what I've observed is that really smart experienced, either transformational leaders or consultants have a strategy and have a mandate and have a scope, but they know full very well that it would be pollyannish. To think of them to think that that would go in as any exact light for like, as it was originally intended. So there's a level of, you know, incompleteness fudge factor taking, and so it takes more time, it's not the perfect, it's not an exact replica of what we said we do in terms of the solution, it costs a bit more. Like, I don't see that as failure, by the way, like, you know, if you're, if the goal of your organisation is to introduce robotics technology, and at the end of the day, you introduced that robotics technology, but it takes you a year longer and cost you an extra 100 and $50 million, if still got it in takes you longer to get your ROI back than what the what your accountant said it would, but it's still in, you're still operating that tech, right. So that I think he's a bit kind of, you know, it's a loose, it's a, it's a headline step, but it's important to read around the data. Yeah, um,
cognitive candy
titling. I prefer I was thinking earlier today around, you know, like, gosh, social media has been good for pithy one liners and memes. That's like, you know, I like him, but actually really like, a good analogy more than I, to get my point across that we could be honest. What was the second half?
Yes. And the second part of that question is okay, so it's true, right, most change efforts don't realise the benefits that they could have realised at the start line. So if they want to realise more of those benefits, what are some non negotiables in your experience, and I'd be interested, if you could split it into kind of all vowed non negotiables, you've got to have this in place, you've got to have this as a minimum standard. But you know what, as you get into it, once you've crossed the start line, you got to have these covert things in place as well. Otherwise, you stand no chance of getting any return, or other kind of two or three usual suspects, main principles, big rocks that sit in that space of, you've got to have these three things in place covertly, and watch out for these two things.
Yeah, I think probably the really big over one that I would call out is, you really need to have clarity of what your end state is. And that is more than just a vision and what or, or a problem statement or your why. You can only capture the hearts and minds of people based on concept before they need the detail. And you will you will possibly do more harm than good if you stay in concepts for too long before without pulling them through and explaining what the knowing and being able to explain what the detail is.
Right? And is that mistake you observe people make is they stay too high, they stay too much in concept.
Yeah. Yeah, and how you know, how it how an internal change practitioner or an astute business leader will know that they don't have enough detail is that you won't be able to articulate the impact to people. Right? You just can't do it. If you haven't, if you don't know where you're heading. Or if that's only in concept, then it's really hard to then be able to understand what the impact is. And if you don't understand what the impact is, then you can't figure out what the tactics are that you need to give to an enterprise a function, a team, any individual in order for them to change.
So it's kind of like forgive the phrase here. It's kind of like a good gotcha question question, isn't it with your stakeholders, you know, If you ask that question, and depending on how they articulate it, it gives you a good sense of, are we actually? Do we have clarity here? Yeah, yeah. Beyond the dream state of revenue number and EBIT number,
that's right, you can have a scope, you can have a business case, you can, you know, you can have your modelling, but that is not, that is not an end state, that is not clarity to the extent that the people that are ultimately impacted by it, and that you want them to do something differently, that we're talking about here, they don't care about the return on investment, they just care about what you want me to do differently.
Is there anything else, any other big rocks?
I think are the one that I look, there's heaps, but probably the other one that I often find myself talking to clients current or prospective about is this really simple framework or model that goes northeast Southwest, and it's got four quadrants to it. And it applies to, you know, changes that are radical in nature, where you have change at a group level, but also at an individual level, then you know, that there is change that is both tangible and intangible. So if you kind of break down those four quadrants, there's one quadrant that these are the individual and intangible level in terms of how they're being impacted by change. And that, that is really people's EQ. I would also put in there that is people's adult levels of maturity, where a person might see on a curve. Yeah, no, that exists, that we can't see it.
Can you explain that? Because I'm sure anyone listening mean, you're not dealing with adults all the time? And I think I know what you mean by that? Yes. Could you maybe just explain what you mean by adult maturity,
ah, we should kind of have the reference in front of me. But the basic, the basic notion of it is that yes, we're all adults, but we actually have different levels of maturity in terms of probably, you know, my, I'll say, our emotional state. So some of us might have higher levels of emotional intelligence, self awareness, resilience, there's, I don't know, probably a myriad of factors that of which people can handle. So if you come across a adult that has a low level of maturity, their ability to do what they'll do, they'll be able to leave, you know, because they lose their temper temper really easily, or they can't control themselves, someone that has a higher level of maturity is able to control their emotional state, to a much higher degree. So that that's what I mean by that. But then, there's also the tangible side of an individual, which we can see, which is our behaviours. And we can measure those things. And there's lots of, you know, working means and tools that we can apply to be able to move. Then at a group level, both tangible and intangible, tangible is the processes, the strategies, the all of the visible things that we do to wrap around how to move, move the whole business and the people within it through change. On the intangible side. I largely call it culture, but what's included in in the intangible side at a group level with norms, power and politics. We know they exist, but we can't see them. And so when I look at businesses that are wanting to move an organisation, a whole organisation through change, they're really focused on the tangible side and have very low regard for the fact that there's anything going on in the intangible side. Yet the reality is, it's the intangible side that actually blocks the change. The What is it the elephant in the rider, the rider cannot, is the tangible side, cannot an 80 kilogramme human you cannot move. And I turn Ellison by force, but it can buy my passion.
Yeah, I think that's that's the example used in I think it's called the happiness hypothesis around change that, you know, our conscious mind is the writer of the elephant and got a little stick, can we tap the elephant to you? And on the left and it goes left if the elephant wants to ultimately, yeah, but the unconscious art kind of intangible side if it fancies going right, and you've tapped left, it will go, right. Yeah. Yeah, no matter what the little rider does. So yeah, so it's a good analogy. So in my experience around change has been, you've got to appeal to both entertain, that appeal to the rider, and I'm the elephant
in the room. And like, you've got to appeal. Yeah, you've got to appeal to we've got to be, you've got to have a level of awareness that all of the strategies and planning in the world will only get you so far. That working on you know, and spinning time and or money, whatever it is thinking about and working on what are the intangible sides that are both an individual and a group level to be able to move, you know, an organisation and people through change is part of the equation. And so how you how you choose to structure that change, the people that you put in it to facilitate and or drive and or sponsor and or governor become really important topics to, to get right. And to change when they're not working. Just tap it out and change it like it's fine. Like, apply agile thinking and iterative, you know, learning and until it does get right, yeah.
Hey, I'm conscious of your bandwidth, because I know you're in the middle of our house move. So maybe it's the colour more questions for me, then we'll we'll pause for for people that are interested in this or change the transformation space. How do they get ahold of you?
Yeah, good question. You can find a you can find us me we, through our website, no, oh eight, the number consultant. Short for number eight consulting. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. My name is Emma Fraser. With a Zed Ew, Ma, fr a Zed er. Yeah,
I will probably do all these things in the show notes, too. Perfect sounds great quickfire questions, then I'm gonna try and make it house related. Sure. Are you the sort of person that hacks your own stuff up? Or do you outsource that?
Attack my own stuff?
Are you ever saw President take everything with you and sought to out when you get there? Or do you go through the sorting out before you leave?
I sorted out before 100%.
And I'm guessing you've moved a few times. How many boxes do you carry around from house to house without even opening them?
My laundry is full of boxes that are ready to go from four and a half years. Is that right? Yeah.
You haven't opened them yet?
Yeah, they're they're just books and I don't own a bookshelf. So I'm like your beautiful backdrop there.
And the house that you're going to without revealing any confidence or addresses or anything like that, what's the feeling you get when you think about it?
I'm the feeling that I get is, it looks more impressive, then. I think it's very impressive. And I think that that might be a bit misleading for people when I'm perhaps a little bit more adult and capable than what I necessarily see myself.
Well, as we know, am I never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Totally. I mean, it's been a pleasure chatting to you. Thank you for some of the insights you've shared. Thank you for sharing some of yourself and some of those changes that you've made. I really appreciate your vulnerability there.
Thanks. Thank you for having me. It's been fun.
You're welcome.
