Welcome to this episode of Freedom Fridays. Now my guest this week is actually someone that I believe is living the Freedom Fridays philosophy where she's convinced herself and committed to school kids or not taking the school holidays off. Which, if I reflect on my own journey of Freedom Fridays, I was there thinking I was brave taking a Friday off. Whereas, Ral, Gabrielle Dolan, she's taking the whole of the school holidays off. So, Ral, welcome. Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks, Pete. I'm looking forward to talking about Freedom Fridays and freedom in general.
Cool, so why don't we start there, and the premise around Freedom Fridays in the work that you do? What is freedom mean?
Freedom to me is always choice. That's what freedom to me is. Like even if you talk about financial freedom, it's about choice. And that, to me, is what true freedom is. Because there's a lot of people that don't have choice, they don't have choice in the job, they do that and you know, base for a whole lot of reason. But freedom, to me is choice. And I still remember really early on in my early 20s. And I actually didn't even know whether I wanted to have kids or not. And I remember making financial decisions like superannuation, I remember at the age of 22, putting 17% of my pay in Super, which is, which is probably not the greatest financial decision. But I just I always remember, if I ever decide to have children, I want to have the choice of going back to work. I don't want to have to go back to work because I can't afford not to. And to me, that's what freedom is all about is choice.
How would you, there's loads of places we can go with that. I'm interested, first of all, given the world that we live in, there are so many choices. You could argue you go to the supermarket and it's no longer you know, tea or coffee. It's 100 different brands of tea. Left, right north, south. How do you help or reconcile when there's so many choices?
I love the you know, the FOMO the fear of missing out? I love that it sort of changed to JOMO which was the joy of missing out. And I think because, and you're right, there's so many things you can do. So I live by the philosophy of just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should do it, or you need to do it. So I think you need to have freedom and around your choices, and to me work/life balance and all that type stuff is getting good at saying no to things. That you just don't, if it doesn't really excite you or energise you, or you get something out of it, then the answer is no. You shouldn't be just doing things out of fear of missing out or doing things out of, you know, expectation that you should do it. So it's been really, I think, just really clear on that doesn't give me energy. So the answer to that is no.
I introduced you as someone that I've, you know, having had a conversation behind the scenes felt that was someone who was probably living the Freedom Fridays philosophy where you take the school holidays off. Would you just give us a little bit of background to that? And, you know, maybe in three parts, a little bit of background - how you came to that commitment, and some of the challenges you've had on the way on keeping the commitment?
Yeah, yeah. Okay, great. All right. So Pete, look, I left my corporate job 17 years ago, so I worked at National Australia Bank, so I got the standard, you know, four weeks leave, I was working parttime. So you know, when I left NAB, our kids were like two and five. So I was working part time. So there was a little bit of freedom there, I guess, and had brilliant managers that allowed me pretty much to do and work as long as little as I wanted to. But when I left, I left and I started teaching people storytelling. It'd be fair to say that, you know, trying to sell storytelling into corporate 17 years ago, there wasn't, it wasn't very popular back then. So I had quite a bit of time on my hands. And we're just fine, the kids were young all good. That was good. And then as it started to go and as storytelling became really popular, and it got to the point where my husband wanted to leave his corporate job. And I remember thinking, Okay, I need to take this quite seriously. I need to be earning now as much money for him to feel comfortable leaving because, you know, he had fully supported me when I left the corporate role. And so I did and I literally quadrupled the salary which means I I quadrupled my work. And I had a year that I was working a lot, and travelling a lot. And it got to the point where I thought this is good, but not sustainable. And this is not not how I envisage what a successful business and life would look like. So, I think after, I got to the point where I financially, we were okay, we were good. And I think in my, because there was so much work coming in from the business you sort of get over that thing of what if no one buys my buys me ever again. And that stays for quite a few years. So I guess I had the confidence to say, you know what, I think I can just draw a few lines in the sand, and some of those things, and I started with not working school holidays. Now. As you know, in Australia, we get like 12 weeks school holiday, so I decided I wasn't going to work school holidays. Because I run training workshops and conferences. Some of that's relatively easy, because no one's running training on the 20th of December, or on the 10th of January. So pretty much from mid December to almost the end of January, people really aren't running training. They're predominantly not running training in the September school holidays as well, because a lot of people take that off. So it did make it a bit easier. I would have clients want want me to do training. And I look at my diary, and I'm thinking oh that's school holidays, and I would say to them, now you realise that school holidays? It could be hard to get people to attend training in school holidays, and they would go Oh, yeah, oh, we didn't even think of that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for pointing that out. I go, that's okay. My pleasure. So it was relatively easy, relatively easy. But there was still some challenges, there's so there was an absolute some challenges. So I, I would often still get requests to run training. And it could even be if, like, if I would give dates, it might be the first one or two days of school holidays, or the last one or two days. So it's not in the middle. So that's sort of that interrupts me or interrupt sort of the flow of the holidays. But you know, it's not just it's a half day, you sort of got to get into the mode of it. There has been times, I remember one time, it was early January, and it was a client and overseas client. And because they don't close down as much as we do in January, and it was three days. And it would have it was in Vietnam. And it would have meant I probably missed a week of the school holidays. But it was three days, it was very good money. It was a really, really exciting project that I wanted to do. It was the start of a long term project. So I just sat down with the family and said, Is this okay? And they went, Yeah, absolutely. Go for it. So it's, I would say I can stick to that stick to that sort of rule 90% of the time, and it's only it's only for an exception. And for an exception that I really want to do or sometimes really want to help out a client that I will, I will do it.
Have you noticed any material difference in your health and balance having taken that time off? Or any difference in the business? Are you as busy, less busy, more busy? You know, what, what has been the kind of outcome on the other side of that line?
Yeah, so interesting. from the business perspective, if I took it that first, it's actually it's actually increased my business in a way that like it's a scarcity. So like in literally saying, I am not available this time. And I'm when I must admit, when I first started doing this, I would just say I'm not available, and I didn't give reasons or whatever. But I assumed clients just thought I was busy working. I'm quite comfortable now to say I'm not available because I don't work school holidays. But what it meant is because I wasn't available those days, it just meant Oh, it's sort of it's a whole scarcity thing. So it was like, well, when are you available? I'm available here. So that actually worked wonders that actually had a really good positive effect on my business, not working school holidays. And I should also too Pete also say is that by that I don't I only work three days a week, is my ideal. And I do that because I'm running training. I think if you're running training five days a week, you come Thursday or Friday. That is not the best version of you on stage. Yeah, yeah. So it's a lot of energy. So my ideal week is no more than three days and that could be three full days. It could be 3 half days, it could be three one hour keynotes. Which does mean you know, when you look at my calendar, it probably means about 80 to 100 days a year I'm working, which, which, again, it's scarcity, it's like I'm not available. It's like if someone if someone rang me now and said, you know, we want to run training in July, Have you got time? We'd go, I've got about three days available in July. Now, granted, I'm in New York for two weeks of that two weeks of July. So it's all genuine. So it's helped with the business. For me, on a personal level, it's absolutely helped with my energy. So giving, giving 100% of yourself onstage in front of people is draining. I love it, I love it, and I'm pumped afterwards, but it is, it is draining long term. And so I find the benefit of school holidays, it's sort of like, you know, 10 weeks on pretty much, two weeks off 10 weeks, on two weeks off. It roughly turns into 10, maybe 12 weeks, when I have the two weeks down, it's sort of like, I'm itching, I'm itching to get back into it again. So I'm really missing it. So from a personal perspective, it's it really helps with my energy levels. You know, and it gives you time to sync it gives me time to write it's, you know, all that all that stuff. So there are there are challenges, but I think you just got to commit to it. And and for me also, like I remember, I was doing some work with, like a partner of a consulting firm. And he's one of the partners. So he's in demand. And I remember him saying, he's sort of questioned me, he goes, be like, you can't just say no to a client, like when you say you don't work, school holidays, if, if they want, you have to do it. You can't say how do you have it? You said to me, how do you say no? And I go, well, if I say yes to them, I'm saying no to my family. And it doesn't matter how much I love my clients and love my work, they're always going to be second to my family. So part of me is like, if you say yes to them, you're saying no to your family. And then he said to me, he goes, yeah, but the problem with me is they really want me and they only want me and I'm going surely that should be easier for you to say no, I'm not. Like if they only want you, then they will, get them to change their date because they want you. So it is a combination of that. And I you know, if someone wants to run a workshop, and I go, I'm not available, and I know they're flexible with the dates, then they will change it. Sometimes they've got a conference and it's been booked in and there's no flexibility at all, and they really want me that's when I'll go look. Okay, I will do that. But it's the exception, not the rule.
Thank you. I did notice one of your LinkedIn posts about this 10 on 2 off, 10 on 2 off and so on. So I have been reading myself a little bit about, you know, we know from an energetic and attention physiologically, emotionally, psychologically, recovery is as important as warmup. We know, in athletics and professional sport, you know, for the job that we do, having the time to recover is as important as you know, getting fired up. So with your two weeks off, and I know that doesn't mean you're off. But with that two weeks off, how do you balance the active recovery aspect versus the passive recovery aspect?
Yes, it's that is a very good and timely question. And the reason I say that is I, I could not run a workshop for two months. And it's to me it is a little bit like riding your bike if you're back into it, but it can take a little bit of time, the longer I've had off a little bit of time to warm up a little bit. And today was a classic example. So I literally got back from holidays, six o'clock last night. And I had a workshop this morning. Now this workshop is not one of the workshops I run all the time. So it has been a while since I've run this workshop, like three months or something. But it was also with a New Zealand client. So it was a seven o'clock start for me. And so I was up at six getting ready. And then I just like they loved it. They were going oh my god, this is amazing. But I felt, I felt I was like oh my god the first half hour I felt like I was stumbling over things and saying things in different order. And I was you know what if they had been at nine o'clock, it probably wouldn't have been an issue. I would have got up at seven I would have had a bit more time to just prepare myself so that that's the thing, but yeah, I felt, I felt I was mumbling a bit but they probably didn't notice at all. And the feedback indicated that they didn't. Well maybe they did notice but they certainly weren't saying. But so it does take a while and it's the same with keynotes, like, you know, people go oh you charge that much that much for a 45 minute keynote? I was like, it's never just 45 minutes. It is like, that to me, is your whole day getting ready for that.
Yeah, I came across a really good example of that. I'll see if I can find it whilst I'm, I'm chatting to you about that very. And I guess this is the world that we exist in. And it was something around, you know, how can you charge that much for 45 minutes? And the premise being - well, it's taken me 20 years to get it down to 45 minutes. Yeah, exactly. Right. And there's a you know, it's a time and material thing for some of the clients, but for us, it's, well, that's just what it takes to get it to a 45 minute impactful message. Yeah - I thought it was an interesting take.
Yeah, it is it is. And it's, um, you're bringing all your decades and experience into that 45 minutes and the insights, and it's to me, it's also the value you add, it's like, it's how much value do you add? I remember, my husband said once to me, you charge more than a lawyer! I go I add more value than a lawyer. Again, again, it was like, you know, sometimes you do have very rare, but sometimes, you know, because budget reasons, like people go come and come and you know, train our top 150 leaders on storytelling. So I literally had this a few months ago, where they want me to, and it wasn't a keynote, it was a half day, half day training session, the top 150 leaders, they want to, they want to be able to communicate their values internally and externally. They want to change their culture to value driven. They want people to understand the strategy. And then I sort of tell them the price for a half day workshop and they go, well, that's a bit expensive. And it was like, like, the value on giving you like a nice sort of so. So hang on a minute, just I'm going to make your leaders better communicators, I'm going to help your leaders communicate the strategy more effectively, I'm going to help them communicate your company values that you've just spent six months, reviewing, help them communicate it, and then I go, and then I always go, actually, I think it's too cheap. I think it's just like, and because I would say what is that worth? Like what is that worth? That is probably worth, if you really sat down and thought about it? How do we if we could get our leaders to communicate the strategy and values better and it's our top 150 leaders - what's that worth? I reckon any CEO would go, that's probably worth half a million dollars. It's like, well, I'm not charging anywhere near that. Yeah. So but you know, if you'd like to pay me that that's what it's worth.
Yeah. You're right. It's a perennial challenge for us in this in this world, you know, the value equation, whether it's time and material, or the impact that it can have that is sometimes intangible, but can be very tangible on the top line, the bottom line, brand reputation, etc.
Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's not it's not charging on time and not thinking about time. Yep.
Ral, you've mentioned a couple of times, and I do want to pick up on this. So a little bit of an agenda from me around storytelling. And if anyone's watching the video, they'll know they can see the books behind you. I think you said seven books published on storytelling. I'm going to because i haven't got one yet. And I do say yet because it's kind of in train. I'm really interested in tying these two concepts together the stories that we tell ourselves, and this concept of freedom of choice. Yeah. So I'd be really interested with your experience, what do you see leaders organisations, what's freedom? What stories do they, should they, could they have freedom from? Or are holding them back? And what will be better, more appropriate, more helpful stories to tell themselves?
Yeah, it's it's a really good insight. I think, I think the stories we tell ourselves either help us or hinder us, they either hold us back or they propel us forward. And it's all the stories we tell ourselves. And normally it comes around the stories we tell ourselves making us feel comfortable, or we're making decisions based on other people. It's so I, I remember, I was speaking to a I was running a workshop and there was a woman who had just, you know, who she just sort of come back from work her kids were two or three. She was really struggling, like really struggling, she was exhausted. And I was talking to her about, you know, putting boundaries like you know, we've talked about not working school holidays, but you could just go I'm just not working Monday morning or I'm or I'm not having meetings before 930 Because I like or I'm finishing work at five or I'm taking my hour lunch break and going for a walk. Whatever it is that's setting boundaries. Because she talked about how she used to go to the gym all the time, but she hasn't had time to do any exercise herself. And she said to me, I just can't do it, I wouldn't be able to do it now. When the kids are older, that's when I'll prioritise my health. And I'd like and that when I hear stuff like that, that to me is really sad. Because what that's the story, she's that I can't do it at the moment is the story she's telling herself. Where, what's the real story? The real story, perhaps is, I don't have the courage to push back. That's potentially the real story. I remember when I went to Harvard about seven years ago, it was on adaptive leadership. And one of the most, we were there for about a week, it was one of just one of those short executive education courses. And the lecture was so challenging that every time you would say an answer, and we're all at Harvard, so we all think we're bloody smart and putting our hand up and saying something, and then he would just go or that he goes, that could be true, or it could be a convenient story you're telling yourself. And it was just like, oh, oh, and so I think we go I don't have time to exercise is a convenient story. We're telling ourselves, what we're saying is we're not prioritising So, in this instance, I would say that she felt or she didn't have the courage to push back and say, no, I'm not available for meetings, before nine o'clock. Line in the sand. Now, of course, there'll be some exceptions to that. But if you don't draw the line in the sand, so I think it's stories like that, that are holding ourselves back from this financial freedom, or not financial freedom, freedom, like freedom of choice, freedom, what we're doing. On the flip side, Pete, I've got my daughter is now 18, and 21. And my 21 year old daughter was going for a job interview. So she's only been in the work force for four or five months. So she had a, she had a four month contract, and she is just looking for other short term contracts. And she's decided to work full time and study part time. So she was she was studying full time, but has flipped it for the last year or so. And she was going for a job interview. And I asked her how she went, and she and I went, right, but I don't think I don't think I'll get the job. And I went, why? And she goes, Well, I asked them that I need I need Tuesday, afternoons off, because I'm got uni and they they said, we're not sure if that we can give you that flexibility. And she went well, then I'm probably not the right person for the job. So like part of me, part of me was like, good on you good on you for having boundaries. The other part of me was going, Oh my God, I would never have thought to say that at 21. But this generation are not, the stories they're telling themselves is why can't I have flexibility from day one? Where our generation, the stories we told ourselves was do crap jobs for 20 years and slowly move up? You know that? I don't want to do that. But you have to do it, because that's what we told ourselves. So, you know, there's, you know, so if you look at that example, my daughter's story, the story she's telling herself, well, I need I need flexibility I want it, is serving her, and she's having the courage to ask for it.
Yeah. I love that idea Ral of a convenient story. Yeah. And in your experience working with leaders, humans, if you like, are there a series of common convenient stories that we put out there to prevent us from avoid, deny, mask certain fears, concerns or worries? Are there common convenient stories that you've come across?
I think - I don't have time - is a very common or convenient story. I didn't have the opportunity. So for example, I often when I do storytelling workshops, will run the training, and they're sort of you know, okay, you now got to get out and share your story. And then I'll see them six weeks later, and we'll do the debrief and I'll go right so how did how did sharing your story go? And it was like, I didn't have the opportunity. I haven't I haven't had the opportunity yet to share a story and it was like going and I just I just push back. I go really? Right. So you haven't done a presentation in the last six weeks. You haven't met with a client in the last six weeks. You haven't had a team meeting in the last six weeks? You haven't had a mentoring or coaching session in the last six weeks? I have not had the opportunity is a very very convenient story for I don't have I didn't have the courage to do it. Even I don't have time can be it's not a priority or you know what it what if I failed so the opportunity, I've never had that opportunity, because that's a convenient story we tell ourselves.
And I'm speculating here as well. How often do you think sitting beneath that convenient story there's the "I'm not good enough story"?
I think that's all. We're all that I'm not good enough story, or I'm not even going for job interviews, for example, was like, I'm not ready for that, or is almost law, I don't have all the skills yet, or that's something I'll do in a few years time. It could be the truth. So it could be the truth. But sometimes the real story, the closer to the story is, again, I'm not prepared to put myself out there in case I don't get it. Like, in case I get rejected. That's, you know, I mean, even look at things like asking someone out on a date, it was like, the convenient story we tell ourselves is they probably wouldn't like me, or they're not my type, where the probably the real story is I'm scared of rejection, which, you know, we all are no one no one likes to be rejected. But we, you know, we, I think sometimes you so what I learned when I went to Harvard is if you just ask yourself, just ask yourself, is that a convenient story you're telling yourself? And the more you ask that the closer you will get to the truth? And the truth could be, yeah, you're right, it's just not a priority, or I'm scared of rejection. And then if you're okay with that, that's fine. But just know, just be aware that the convenient stories. And sometimes the convenient stories can serve you like the delusional stories we tell ourselves. So it was like, you know, I think I tell myself a lot of delusional stories, which gives me a lot of confidence to do something where a lot of other people would go, Oh, my God, I would never do that isn't that, wouldn't that be embarrassing? And I'd be going how would that be embarrassing? If it works, it works, but if doesn't it doesn't. All, good.
Can you give me an example?
Oh, God, a specific example. I've um, I mean, just even the fact that I get up and, and get on stage, like in front of hundreds of people. Two years ago, or two and a half years ago, I did a stand up comedy course. Because, you know, just like there's an art in telling the story, there's an art in telling a joke. And so I always want to get better at speaking and speaking in a way that's not only educational, but entertaining. So I did a stand up comedy course to learn the art of writing jokes, and delivering jokes. But it coincided with doing a stand up comedy gig, so you had to do a gig. And I the amount of people that said, Oh my god, I would never do that - that would be the most terrifying thing. What if no one laughed? And I just sort of went well, I don't know. Like, what? Like, I'm sure I'll be funny enough. And so you know, I just did it. I like I had my, my best friend would be terrified of that. And she wasn't even going to come and see me. She goes, I'm not going to come and see you because I'll be so nervous for you. And I go, why are you, I'm not even nervous for me. Why are you nervous for me? And she goes, I'll see you next time. I go, I'm not changing careers - I'm just doing this as a one off. So yeah, it's just I don't know, just this delusional moment that, you know, if, what, what could be the worst thing that could happen? Like, you know, no one laughs so what? That will create a funny story in itself.
Do you think you were born like that? Or is your immersion in storytelling, helping you with some of the helpful and hindering delusional stories?
I think the work I do around storytelling has sort of led me to understand this concept of the stories we tell ourselves, even though it's a very different, I guess, meaning around storytelling. I think I was raised. I think when I look at some of that, how I was raised, I'm one of eight children, and my parents were very much give it a go, just seriously, just give it a go. So we were always encouraged to just give things a crack. And if any, if they didn't work out, don't give up but just try something different. So I was we were always sort of encouraged to do that. My dad was very much you know, you would call my dad the ultimate feminist now where he would, regardless of whether it was me or my brothers, we were taught the same thing. So he taught all of us how to change tires on the car, he taught all of us how to paint he taught all of us how to, you know, solder stuff and like, we learned everything because he just thought we should all learn how to do this. Some of it quite dangerous when I look back on it now, but you know, that was the 60s and 70s so no OH&S there. So I think it was a combination of my upbringing to just give give something a crack. Which I think then gives you confidence. I think confidence breeds competence. Yes, I think I think so.
And if you were helping some, so let's say, you know, I come to you for a bit help. And I say, Look, I'm trying to do this presentation. And you asked me a couple of questions, and we get to the point where I can go, right, my convenient story is, I'm not funny. I'm not good enough. I'm not charismatic, whatever the the delusional convenient story might be, that's not helping me. So let's say we get to that point, and I can go ah, right? I'm not funny. And then you help me create this other story. Well, I am funny, right, which is just the opposite. There's part of me that's going - Yeah, but.. Yeah, but... yeah, but... yeah, but.. yeah, but... And no matter what you tell me Ral. I'm not funny, right. How do you help someone, I guess park that, get over that. Find a way around the deeper story that might never come out, but that's still there.
Yeah. Yeah. Look, it's Pete, it's interesting. I probably don't do a lot of I don't do a lot of work in that. So I would be on that situation. For example, I would be more helping you come up with the stories you could share in your presentation. I wouldn't be doing that. But if it if it arose that you would be going your but I probably I'm probably not going to do this presentation anyway because of whatever. I would probably ask you well, is that a convenient story you're telling yourself? I have had the experience once where I was actually just sitting next to a woman who was, she had to give a presentation next week. And so I wasn't mentoring or anything, but I was just sitting next door over dinner the week before. And she was asking me what I did. And she went, oh my God, I'm going to give a presentation. And she goes it's an after dinner event. So she goes there normally really boring. And I just don't want it to be boring. But I'm not funny. And I go well, everyone's funny because it's a different level of funniness. And then I just sort of said, and she told me, she goes, every, every yearly event, they have these, everyone's got up spoken too long, and they've been really boring. And I've been sitting there going, I can't wait for this speech to get over because I just want to drink now. And I go, why don't you just start with that? I go that that would be funny, because it's not going to be hilarious, like laughing. But it's going to be people going, oh my God, have thought that the whole time. And it'll just be funny enough for them to sort of then listen to you to go, well, maybe this is going to be different. And, and then I said of course, and then you've got to deliver on that. You can't open with that and then go on forever and be really boring. But it's just, you know, it'd be finding those little - okay, so you might not be funny. You might not be comedian, you might not be the funniest person in the room. But everyone can be their own version of funny or humorous depending on the situation.
Yeah. When I reflect on some of the clients I've worked with over the years, trying to help them make this distinction about being funny or having fun. Yeah, as in most of us who are not comedians might have the odd gag or joke, but that's not what we do. It's really an entry point into a conversation. And yet when you're in the pub, or at dinner with your friends and family, what causes the most laughter is not necessarily the gags. It's just somebody says something normal. That's a contrast or it's it's something they've misspelt or mis-said that creates the humour. Yeah. And so this distinction between telling gags and being funny, as opposed to having fun. Like you've just described, standing up and saying that very thing might create more energy, laughter, and connection and authenticity than the most perfectly scripted joke.
Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, it's not and I look, I don't think anyone should be trying to be funny. And it's also to if you if you're not funny, and if it doesn't come naturally, then don't try to be the funniest person in the world. Because I'm first of all, what why? Why are you trying to be? And you know, like, again, you get back to convenient stories about well, why are you trying to be funny? And because it'd be like, Well, I don't know, because everyone, I thought if you present you need to be funny. It's like no, you don't at all. That's just one style. It's you know, and people have people have dry. Sorry, my phone should always turn your phone off and you're doing a podcast - that's not only aconvenient story you tell yourself, but probably a very practical story. Yeah.
Ral, have you come across Ernest Hemingway's six word stories?
Yes. Yes.
What's your? Is that a helpful frame? Or is that too difficult for people?
I think in the story telling that I teach, it's probably not that helpful. So for that for you know, your listeners that don't know the six word Hemingway story is, you know, can you tell the story in six words? And it'd be like, "baby shoes brand new, never worn". So that's the classic. So when you go, so now, now, the listener or the reader interprets what happened. What happened? Like, you know, what was the baby never born? Or did they just buy the wrong size shoes? Like, you know, you don't know. So that, to me is putting something out there, which very much is allowing the person to interpret what's the story behind that, the back story? The storytelling that I work in business and in corporates is going how do you communicate your message more effectively through stories? So it's, it's got to be a bit more direct than the six word Hemingway story.
Yeah. And so if I, if I came to you and said, you know, I want to be, I want to communicate the values better. Or, you know, tell the strategy better. Is there any top pocket tips, you could offer people about how to do that?
Yeah, look, my my key. And where I go in is, when we share stories in business, we tend to share business stories. Which is fine, but it's the default. So if we want to be known as brand around innovative, we will tell stories about how we've been innovative in the past, like we would, which is fine. But those stories tend to be more case studies, as opposed to stories. which can still be valuable, but their probably not as powerful as stories. So the work I do is, if so let's just say one of your examples is innovative, or integrity, it's working with leaders going so what does that mean to you? What is innovative mean to you? Don't worry about what the company have said it means what does it mean to you? And helping them be really clear, and then helping them find a personal story to communicate that. So and what I find is when I go into organisations and run storytelling training, and I'll say to a leader, okay, so we're using the values and they go, what value did you pick? They go I picked integrity, because it's really important to me. Okay, right. So in your own words, tell me what that means. And they'll go respect. I go, yep - what else? It's being truthful. And I was like, Okay, I think this is when I go, you can use more than one word. But they go it could be, it means um, you know, if you say you're going to do something, do it. I go, okay, great. What else does it mean? And then they'll normally go, Oh, gee, you've put me on the spot here. I haven't really thought about it this much before. And that, I think, is ultimately one of the biggest mistakes we make in businesses, is when we're rolling out strategy values, we go, okay, these are our four values. And this is what it means. But the leaders aren't given the space to say, what does it mean to me personally? And then once I've made that connection of what that means to me, personally, so if you say, you're going to do something, do it. What's a personal story that you could share, to communicate that, and because you're gonna have work related stories, which are fine. But what's a personal story that shows that this value is really important to you. And also, when so find a time in your personal life - as in it didn't happen at work, which demonstrates that value. So whether whether you've lived that value, or you haven't lived that value. So if I just looked at that, if I just looked at that value of integrity, and you know, for me on a personal level, and my business, if it was, if you say you're going to do something, do it, I would go well, what's a personal story and a work story that you could use to demonstrate that. But I'll give you a quick example of both because I think it highlights the power in them. So a work related story could be you know, quite a few years ago, I had a potential client who rang and spoke about this conference they wanted me to do, they asked if I was available on the date. I said, Yes, I said, but we'll keep it as a tentative, but we need to, for you to confirm the date. And we followed them up once or twice, and they never got back and this was months ago. And then I was I was booking a trip to America. And it was like, well, we never heard back from them. Now, we should have probably tried one more time. But we just assumed that it wasn't going to head because I think we tried twice but. So I assumed it wasn't going to head and then after I booked my flights to America, they came back and and you know said so we're all locked in for that date. And it was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know if nothing was confirmed, and they're going no well we assumed it was confirmed from our end. Now, I could have had a fight, I could have whatever. And I said, You know what, I will just I just deferred my flight, I just changed it. Think I had to change it by a day or two. So so because in my mind, there was some form of commitment on my behalf and so I was going to commit to that. So I mean, that's a story of me living and breathing my values, which is, you know, okay, good. Good on me, look at me, look how great I am. That type thing. But now I want to give you an example of a personal story, where I didn't live the value, and I think you'll experience the power in it. So if we're talking about if you say you're going to do something, do it, which is important to me. I remember when my daughter Jess, she was about 10. And she was in swimming, you know, a little swimming school thing. It was just an inside small school sports and she wanted me she said, Mum, can you come and watch me swim? And I said, Yes, I can. And so I was there, I made it in time, and I got to the swimming thing and proceeded to speak to all the parents. And unbeknownst to me, Jess was on the starting blocks to start her race and was yelling at me to get my attention. And I did not hear because I was talking talking, talking. She got to the end to do the tumble turn at the end where I was sitting, I was only sitting probably a few metres away. And instead of just doing the tumble turn, she actually stopped and yelled out, Mum, and I looked at her and all I could see was just a combination of anger and real disappointment. And she just, then kept swimming and at the end, I was trying to get your attention. You weren't even watching me. And it doesn't matter how I how I said, No, I did see you it was it was gone, the moment was gone. And, and that I mean, that was 10 years ago. And I can still, I can still see her little fase of disappointment. So it's sharing stories of when you haven't lived the values that sometimes we're not sometimes that I think are way more powerful than when you have lived values. And sharing personal stories that show that this is this is actually a really important personal value that I have. And of course, then it moves over to my business, the way I run business. But it's the personal story that's more powerful, impactful, then the work story.
So, and I felt the difference there Ral. Thank you for sharing that. For the listener, then what what are some of the, are there any simple distinctions between the, whether it's personal or professional, that the story that you told at the start there versus that story that you've just talked about. What are the kind of simple differences? You know, you know, you and I could unpick that two minute version and go, Oh, that was this language there was this, you know, for the simplicity are there other main differences between what makes a story work and what makes it impactful?
Yeah, so I think some of the most powerful stories is when you show vulnerability and so for showing vulnerability is pretty much is saying, I didn't get it right. And for this was this was even if you did do it, right, like even if it was a story of when you did live the value, that could be a story around how hard it was and how challenging it was. Because, you know, we all we all don't live our values 100% of the time. So sharing stories about how that that made you feel and regretted. So I think that's that's a distinction. But besides, sometimes more with a case study, it was like, This is what the problem was, and this is what we did. And this is what we achieved. And this was the outcome, which I can learn a lot of that but it's not, it's not a motive, it's not a motive. So vulnerability brings in emotion, ultimately, that's what we're trying to do is, is tap into emotion. And when I say emotion, it's not like emotional, like we're not, we're not deliberately sharing stories to make people get emotional or cry. But the outcome of the story is I, I, I attach it to emotion. So it triggers emotion. So it helps me visualise something, it helps me feel something. So that's when we talk about emotion, it just helps me feel something and I connect with it. We will often talk about I really when people go I really connected with your story. They're saying connected because they felt something and that's so that's, that's what I mean by emotion as opposed to emotional. And I think the really important some of the really important things when you're sharing stories in a business context is they got to be really succinct. So yeah, my better rule of thumb is one to two minutes. Once you're going over two minutes, and especially when you're sharing a personal story, people that just that will start to think get to the point and the moment. The moment anyone's thinking get to the point you're losing them. So you're absolutely losing them. I think they've got to be absolutely authentic. Like they gotta be there just got to be some people go well, as long as it's gets the point across, what's the harm done, that there's a massive amount of harm done and because you know, it's just. And when you retell the story, you don't just retell it, you relive it. So it's got to be succinct, really short. It's got to be authentic. It's got to be relatable, and the, you know, those and what I mean by relatable is because we do have a connection. So they also to that so they're my story about like my daughter Jess and not being being at a swimming but not being present, is it's not this big, life changing moment of but it's, it's, it's a it's a story that we've probably all been guilty of, in some, you know, when we've we've sort of said we do something but didn't or was there but not present. So it's those little day to day ones that make it that make your stories really relatable. And that's, that's that's important.
A distinction for me, Ral that I picked up for me, as you've talked, there is the difference between reliving it and retelling it. What's the difference?
When it's a personal story, and it's true, and it means something important to you, you don't just retell it, you relive it, And you relive it, because you feel the emotions. And as again, if it's if it's like a very practical story, like a, like a case study or a work story, we tend to retell and it's just almost regurgitating the information. reliving it means you feel the emotion again, which means people sense the emotion. So every time I tell that story about Jess, like it's not I'm not crying or anything, I'm not getting emotional, but I can feel it. I can absolutely feel it. And when I share it, the people hearing it can sort of sense, can sense, my own disappointment in myself. So that's, that's why the reliving and I think that brings the authenticity to it as well.
As a family, we've got enough. I've shared a few stories myself about this a bit of our family ritual, we watch things like The Voice. Australia's Got Talent, not because it's a bit of, you know, family entertainment, but I find it fascinating when you hear the judges comment about someone who delivered a brilliant song, but I didn't quite believe you. Right, you've got a great pitch, but it was a bit cold. And I wonder if people really, I think they get it, they feel it, but they maybe can't articulate it. And I'm wondering if that's the same in business where people are sometimes your distinction the retelling it, but there's just an edge of authenticity, genuineness felt experience in it that if they did that, not only would they feel it, and relive it, but the audience would feel it and therefore live it, too.
Yeah, I agree. I there's something in the way, somebody the story, but it's the way it's delivered. And I think ultimately, it comes down to the stories, they've got to be authentic, so it's got to be true. But I think you've also got to believe in the message. So to me, authenticity has two parts to it as the story's got to be true. But it's got to be true for you, as it's got to be congruent with what you really believe. And you see this sometimes where leaders might get up and share a personal story around the importance of work/life balance you're sitting there going, but that's crap - because you don't do that. Like you, you are the opposite of that! So it's just there's something missing. And with authenticity, sometimes you can't put your finger on it. But you know that something's not quite right. And I think that, like your example of The Voice where it's like, they there's probably where they're going, Oh, just sense that it wasn't truly you. So I think there's got to be congruence is you have to believe in the message, you've got to believe what you're talking about. So if you're, you know, if you're talking about integrity and sharing stories, then you've got to truly believe that. And I think if you get the congruence, right, and the story is true, and it means something to you, then that's when it will come across as really authentic. And then then when it's really authentic, people believe it people create a connection, they'll remember it, they learn a lot more about you. There's a all the science with storytelling shows that you not only connect to the story, but you also connect to the storyteller. So that and that's the science part of storytelling. So there's, there's a huge amount of research done by very smart people. Neuroscientists.
Fascinating, isn't it? I'm maybe opening up a can of worms here Ral I know, we've kind of chatted for a long time, so but I'm going to do it anyway. So imagine I'm a second tier manager, I'm a GM and EGM. And the strategies come down from above, however it's been created, whether it's bottom up, top down, you know from our parent in Europe - whatever/however it is, and I'm not quite - I don't quite get it. I don't quite believe it, I don't quite like it. But my role has a responsibility to share the story, to share the narrative. But I'm not, I don't - we're making the same mistake. Whatever the rationale is that I'm sitting here feeling a little bit incongruent. Yeah. But my role demands are going to be congruent. Yep. Yeah. How would we could you offer any advice in that - in dealing with that dilemma?
Yeah, and I've seen this happen a lot where, you know, the people going, okay, we've been told we've got to implement the strategy, but there's part of me that doesn't believe it. Part of me thinks it's perhaps this is not going to work. So I would say in that situation, your message changes. So the message isn't around how great the strategy is, because you don't believe it. Maybe the message is, let's give this a go. That, and you're being honest, that I am not 100% convinced myself, but the rest of the leadership team is or the board is, so maybe there's something in this. So let's give it a go and give it 100% and see what happens - and maybe I'm wrong. So there's a story around that. There could also be a story around accepting the umpires decision. It was like, you know, we were in a company and not all of us have to agree on this. But if we're playing the game, we have to accept the umpires decision, we have to accept the rules. So there could be I mean, you know, that's, that's not going to be your motivational rah rah rah story. But you know, strategy very rarely is and even when they are like they're the ones that seem inauthentic. So I think it's finding the message that you're comfortable with. And so I've I've done this a lot with senior execs, I go, Well, maybe not senior execs, because they're probably on board, but the next level down. Is your message is changing to let's give this a go and see what happens.
And do you find - I had a question in mind that has just slipped my mind for a second. In those situations, is it better, do you think to do that? Or is it better to not even communicate anything at this point? Is it better to say I'm unsure, I'm not quite aligned yet. Because the reason I'm asking - the question that I had in mind was - so often I'll chat with and like you coach and speak to leaders about, and the requests they make on what they're trying to do is get buy in. I'm telling a story to get buy in. Now, I have a personal view, which I'll show in a second. Is buy-in binary? Or is it on a continuum?
I think it's on a continuum. So I think, I think it's so going back, I think it's you should communicate. So I think the worst case scenario is, okay, you got to communicate this message, you don't believe in it, but you just pretty much lie and say, Oh, this is going to be good, good, good, but you don't believe in it, because that's got that's got failure written all over it. Not communicating anything's got failure written all over it. And especially in this day, and age where we go, I'm not going to communicate until I've got all the answers or until I'm fully committed to it. It was like, things are changing so bloody fast these days that that's not even like, that's not even practical anymore. So I think you you communicate exactly what you're thinking to say, look, I still have doubts about this. But we're, we're moving through it, and it keeps evolving. So, you know, the story becomes about that. And then I would go, you know, you think I'm sure you've had heaps of times in your life where you haven't had all the answers. But you've taken the first step. I mean, having children, getting married, taking on a new job, moving overseas. None of those situations we were fully in and knew all the answers, it was just like, Okay, well, let's just take a step and see how it goes. So I would go share a story about that which we do in our personal lives all the time. So what we're asking now in this maybe in this business situation is no different to that. It's no different to that. It's just saying, look, let's let's just give it a go.
Ral it's been fascinating chatting to you. I think stories are omnipotent across everything everyone does just all of the time. And being aware of them. You've certainly raised some questions and some insights about how one might be more aware of them. I might finish if it's okay with you with some lighter questions that you perhaps don't know are coming. The first one would be really easy. What's you know, are you sunrise or sunset?
Sunrise as you know, I'm a better morning person. I'm better. I'm a better morning person that at night. I go to bed early. If you gave me a choice of do I want to watch the sun rise and watch the sunset I would choose watching the sunset.
Interesting. Interesting. What's the story you live your life by?
Story I live my life by is - give it a crack because what's the worst thing that could happen?
Do you prefer stories with clear endings or ambiguous endings?
In my line of work I like stories with clear endings.
Okay. What's a book that's changed your life?
I have to say it's Steven Dennings book on organisational storytelling because I read it. I read it about 20 years ago. And it was Steven Dennings the senior exec at the World Bank. And it was what it's when I read that I thought if a senior executive, the World Bank has written a book on storytelling, I think there's something in this. So it was at that moment where I was thinking, I think there's something in storytelling and teaching people in organisations to use stories. So that was the book that gave me I think, the confidence to go yep, you're right, there's something in this.
Which, you know, fascinates me, you know, here we are in Australia recording this podcast, which the indigenous community have lived centuries, with storytelling.
Yeah, with 10s and 10s, of 1000s of years. So like, if you need no other indication of the power of storytelling, you just have to look at our First Nations dream time stories where messages have been passed on for literally 10s and 10s of 1000s of years, all through a story.
Right, I think that's a perfect way to pause on that. I really appreciate one your time and, and two just some of the insights and particularly some of the vulnerable stories you've shared with us. I'm sure the listeners will have fascination around retelling and re-listening to the podcast this afternoon.
Thanks, Pete. love talking to you.
Thanks, Ral.
