Welcome to this week's episode of the freedom Fridays podcast, again, an opportunity to talk and discuss and share some insights and thoughts from from people that have done the same and made some big changes. They've gone from I have to I choose to. I want to welcome an old friend as not age wise, but feels like I've known him a long time. A chap called Andy Foster, who is in the same game that I'm in. He's in the same world of consulting and management and leadership and executive team coaching and stuff like that. So quick hello, morning, Andy.
Hello Pete, I think, yeah, I think I think you're right and that you're wrong in I am old in age as well. Thank you.
You look very young Sir. Andy I start this usually in the same way by you know, the metaphor of Freedom Fridays is about moving from I have to to I choose to, and yours is an interesting story. What's the big change that you made?
Well, it's interesting. I had to because I had to make a choice. Right? It was really, really interesting. So my big change was, where to start? Last year, just as COVID was hitting. I was diagnosed with esophageal cancer. Wow. A quick consultation with Dr. Google told me there was a 20% five year survival rate. And I really did prepare myself for the worst and for a few days, weeks whilst tests and scans were going on I did live in a really interesting kind of, I won't say nether world, but a surreal world where I had accepted death. And I genuinely had accepted it. I'm getting goosebumps as you're talking. I didn't know we were gonna go there but let's. Well, nor did I. It was really strange. I mean, at the time, yeah. And it slightly unsettled me how easily I did confront that and accept it. And what was interesting was that other people were far more worried than me. And my reflection was that I had agency I had choice because it was me and my body and my brain, my feelings, my emotions. So I could choose, back to this idea of choosing, I could choose how I responded to it. Yeah. And being a good old, you know, dyed in the wool coach, I was able to roll out one of my sayings that I used to clients and still do all the time, which is tell yourself a better story, or are you telling yourself the best story, and my story was, there's nothing I can do about this so let's make the most of it. And in fact, if I'm going to, if I'm going to go on this journey, I'm part of my medical team, and I need to partner with those who are seeking to make me better to give them the best chance. So that was just a little bit of context. Big operation, lots of treatment. Very big operation, and then even more chemo, just in case, I think I said, not because they thought it was for the best. And then this brought me out to a place where as my oncologist said "you'll never be the same". And he was right, but I'm 98% the same. But there's a few little bits about me. And some of it is not about the chemo. It's about the journey I went on and this journey from have to to choose to, I suppose. Wow!
I've got loads of questions about that. But I want to dive into if I may, interesting that I think a lot of us now would check out Dr. Google, and we'd do a little bit of research. And it's interesting you said, you know there's a 20% survival rate. And then what I heard you say was you then went to work on accepting the possibility of the 80%. And in doing so, I'd love to know how you did that and that then help you focus on the 20%?
How did I, how did I do it? Some of it was quite instinctive actually, that's why it was quite disarming that I woke up one morning went, alright, well, I think, you know, as things stand, I'm going to die. I think that the way I explained it earlier on, I think is the best explanation was there was an interesting moment. And I hope we're not going too far off piste here but it was an interesting moment where, almost literally a road to Damascus moment where I was working really hard on my fitness because I knew I had this big operation coming up and I knew that there's a correlation between fitness and the effectiveness of chemotherapy. And I was pounding the pavements or the linear path along the river, beautiful place near where I live but spending most of my time, trying to beat my previous time or looking at the pavement in front of me. And then I had this moment where I looked up. And the way I see it now, which is probably a little bit Hollywood, but it was, you know, suddenly everything was in colour, not black and white. And I could hear the birds singing in the room and the water running through the weir and there was this moment where, hey, I don't want to die. I don't want to die. And I've accepted it. But I've decided that that that was fine to cope with for a bit but now let's get on with living and it was at that point that then I hopped into what I said earlier on about making the choice to tell myself a story that I was part of my medical team. And I needed to show up in a way that gave them and me the best chance of the treatment working. And I hope it played a part. They did a great job. They did an amazing job but I tried to play an active part in in that. So I don't know if that answers your question. But that moment that road to Damascus moment, I think was a really important bit of the shift between the 80 and the 20. Yeah.
It's obviously a cliche, we all know, we're going to go at some point. And you know, we're in the queue. And I've read a long, long time ago that death can sometimes be our greatest gift. But it seems in your situation and many others that it's not until you get presented with well now you're at the front of the queue, have a look. No, not yet. I don't know, I guess that's kind of a gift? And sometimes, obviously, depending on what you believe in, you know, circumstances, something that's forced to happen. And it's fascinating how you've turned that round. I'm interested, do you recall? You said you told yourself a different story. Do you recall what the old story was and what the new story was? And you have the same new story now?
Good question. Good question. And before I answer that, I'll just pick up on the the idea of the gift, there is a saying amongst the cancer community and I've heard it a couple of times, which is cancer was the best thing that ever happened to me. Now I don't subscribe to that. I wouldn't wish it on anyone but to use that as a link through to, to answer your question - I think the old story was the one that was exemplified by me trying to beat my previous fastest time on my walk, on my run and pounding the pavement and looking not too far ahead. As opposed to looking up. And the very, very, most basic level and there's a whole load of work on neuroscience research that shows that this is a thing is when you look up and some of it's about the interaction with nature, and some of it is about looking up and and subconsciously or otherwise recognising what a small miniscule speck you are in a massive ecosphere. Yeah. And it just gives you perspective. And it makes you realise that whether or not you beat your previous time or how much shoe leather you wear out, ain't gonna make you a better person and ain't gonna change the world. Totally. Sure we can we can make an imprint on the world, don't get me wrong, I strongly believe that and I have strong views and strong values, which is why I'm in what I what I do, around the fulfilment of potential, but understanding that we are part of a much, much bigger system. And that actually what we need to do is is be here in the present, in the now and be the best we can be right now rather than always, if you like, goal setting, which is quite often negative goal setting. And I know the old cliche, no one ever says on their deathbed, I wish I had spent more time at work. Yeah, yeah. So that I think that was the story, that was the shift - slow down, look up and be in the moment and make choices, it is about making choices. Yeah. Yeah. Is that still the story a year on? Oh, very much so, very much so. Coming back to the you'll never be, you'll never be quite the same. There was a little bit around the chemo that you know, it took a while, takes a while to get your energy back. And you know, sometimes my short term memory's you know, not quite as good 'What's your name?' 'Oh Pete yeah'. It's funny. I used to be very good at, those people who know me will chuckle when I say that I'm not the most organised person. I don't love detail particularly and so one thing that got me out of an awful lot of scrapes was a really, really good short term and medium term memory. I could remember where I was when something happened and could try and email or whatever. And that's gone. Gone a little bit, just a little bit. So I have to be a bit more organised. So that's, that's one thing, but I have the loss of a bit of energy, and particularly as I was moving back up the curve, you know, as I was getting my energy back, I was finding it harder to be on that hamster wheel that I needed to be back on. And our business is a growing, ambitious business. I was in Culture Alchemy, it's amazing stuff being done there, around helping organisations understand the true nature of culture change. And I, as somebody who had been a big four consultant and brought that to the team, was the one that was saying scale, scale scale. And yeah, we've got to think forty consultants not six and, and then finding that actually, I didn't have the energy or the inclination to carry on doing what was required in order to scale a business, which was around detail and systems and processes.
And so it was, well for a start, I had a duty of care or a duty of integrity to my colleagues that I couldn't say yes and do no. And I was finding it hard to do 'yes'. So that combined with this idea, this question that I had, which was, well what nourishes my soul? And there's a couple of things - one is obviously working with colleagues and clients in helping unpick very messy systemic culture and leadership and exec challenges. But that was you know, some of that there's a little bit of the metaphor of the pavement in front around that because you're helping people to get somewhere. So there is another element to it, which is creating time and creating space, to to be truly present with my family, with the things that I love doing outside of work and basically getting some balance. So what I've done is I've stepped away from a directorship of that business, I'm still involved with it but I'm actually focusing very much more on, particularly on exex team coaching and coaching CEOs and that kind of thing, but taking a chance for the first time for a long time to deepen my craft and go deeper and let go of some of the other admin, get somebody to do that, but also minimise it by just being on my own but in an ecosystem of talent and working with people like you, and others to collaborate, but in a very efficient way. So actually the net result is I'm, from a financial perspective, achieving what I need to but spending less time doing it. And paradoxically, getting better at it, because I'm spending more time deepening my, no just doing some some of the reading and having conversations. And that kind of thing that allows me to also you know, support a son going through year 12, and all that, and all those things that I was able to do last year when I was sick. And it's now become a bit of a norm. So I think I think COVID played a part in this. It's easy to cause it all, yeah attribute it all to what happened to me last year but what happened, happened at a time where a whole load of norms and protocols and ground rules were changing. That I think where you and I both talked about how we're able to, or not able to, but we're finding that our profession is changing the way that people see work and see the opportunities to develop.
Andy your comment about, you know, trying to beat your personal best on the run resonates so much with me, because I've got a physical sporting background, and part of my identity is linked to the physicality of me being better tomorrow. And I often wonder, you know, when when will I have reached my peak in terms of timing? But obviously, you know, I could still do it 10 years later, so I'm going to shift my perspective on that. But I'm really interested in your comment about the role that you had within the firm? Two questions - in that role how long, because it was probably whispering to you before you made the decision to pull out, how long between the whisper and the shout? And second part of that question is Which part of you held onto it the longest?
So the whisper, it was quite hard, because somebody once told me that 70% of our assumptions are wrong. And 90% of our assumptions about other people are wrong in some way, paradoxically, mostly about people we are closest to. But anyway, that's a little aside, you can edit that out Pete. But to answer your question, I had an assumption that it was all about just recovering from the cancer and the chemo and getting my strength up. And I suppose it was interesting that, you know, I came off all the treatments at the end of last year, went away for Christmas came back. And I suppose my colleagues because I had fed that story assumed that in on the first of February, I'll be, you know, back to normal back to work. And of course, it wasn't like that. So there was a little bit of a struggle, you know, it wasn't it wasn't meant to be like this, where's my mojo? And, so yes, so I kind of shrouded a whisper and thinking it was something else, right. But when I looked back on it, it was beginning to play out even as I was coming back from my treatment, from my operation. And I was playing more of a balcony role in about October with the team and I was feeding it stuff that I was seeing, from one removed and quite enjoying playing that role. Not that I wanted to be the CEO, but just playing that slightly detached role. And that was something that was, yeah, it was making me, not making me, there was something about me, that was slightly detached. Interesting. And it was 'when I'm better then I'll be back in, it's been good to do a bit of thinking' and when the time came to get back on the hamster wheel it was a bit like when my dog at six o'clock in the morning tells me in no uncertain terms he's not coming for a walk on the beach and kind of hangs his head and goes and hides in one of the kid's rooms. So it was a little bit like that. But the shout was I just had a moment, where I had an in the mirror moment saying Well, look, you've been talking scaling all the time now everyone's beginning to do it. They're asking you to get on to a very lovely hamster wheel with a wonderful bunch of people and culture and model but nevertheless, something that was going to involve yakka and detail and systems and processes. It's inauthentic of you to stay doing that. And then closely followed by another shout that says you don't have to do this. Right. You don't have to do it and I do credit my colleagues for helping me get there. You know, I was prevaricating saying I want to step back but I want to stay involved. And I want to do this and want to do that, and why don't I sit on the board? And then one of them just just said, Well, have you thought about just stepping aside completely? And it was, yeah, I remember that moment, it was very nicely done. And thank you, James. It was, it was done with care and love, not in any recriminatory way. And I remember at that moment, feeling, going back to this kind of felt sense, this feeling of weightlessness. And I knew straightaway that I was now at peace. And I think James commented as such, or maybe it was Carl, when I was mentioning it to him afterwards saying 'why are you different? You sound at peace" So yeah, it was, it was interesting. And then you know, you get to the stage where having made the decision and felt good about it then there's the oh shit moment, which is alright now I've got to make this happen. And so the disengagement from the business has been beautifully done and managed by all of us I think it's, but then it's like, oh, now I've actually got to get on some kind of hamster wheel just to make it work. Yeah. Nevertheless, there's something about choice. And something about creation, creating something that does have other elements to it other than the work, it is about walking the dog, it is about getting out and going and walking every morning, it is about the kids and so on. So it's a three dimensional. Yeah,
I feel that Andy, in my position, very similar to you, I probably haven't worked as hard or learnt as much or spent as much time with the family and my wife than I have over the last two, three years than I did in my role as a partner in the firm. Right? It's just incredible. One of the reasons I ask you the the question about which part have you held on the longest, I often find, I'm relating my own experience to this too, the changes that we want to make and end up making whether forced to or not, or choosing to, we're often the last to know. We're often the last to recognise it. Yeah. Do you agree and do you have a perspective on why that might be the case?
Yes, I do agree. And, for me, what it's all about, and maybe I'm going to go into a bit of psychobabble here based on what I do for a living but we are all forged and formed, forged in and formed by where we come from, the journey we've been on and the fears that we have. And so we're wired to be social animals, we're wired to stay in the tribe. And so as we're developing as humans we develop a suite of strengths to keep ourselves safe. And things that make us feel like, really around our identity, building an identity that allows us to fit into the world. So for me, there was a couple of things. One was not so much around a fear but my family had all been entrepreneurs and I didn't want to walk away from the opportunity to build something, and to create something, slightly linked to this value I have about fulfilling potential. I didn't want to walk away when something was half formed. The new story is I played a massive role in forging it. Yeah. And it's not about the money that people do or don't earn at the end of the fat company cycle. It's more about so where do I get my reward from? I did, you know I contributed to it fulfilling its potential and then handed my part of it over to others to do bigger and better things who had the energy and time to do it. And there's something around around being included and you know, the need to be liked and wanted. So stepping away from a tribe was another thing that meant that I didn't want to contemplate stepping away, even though it was staring me right in the face. So yeah, we're wired for, we have all these strategies to keep ourselves safe by developing and persisting with the way that we see ourselves and how we fit into the world. And you'll recognise this as Bob Keegan's immunity to change which is just fascinating where we're committed to something on the surface but there's something below the surface subconsciously that we're even more committed to that makes us behave in different ways. And I think that that explanation does fit in with what's happened here.
I was listening to, I've said this twice in the last 24 hour, listening to Tim Ferriss interview I can't remember the guy's name but I think he ran Lulu lemon for a while and you know, a little bit like you and I, grew up in the you know, Jim Rohn, Brian Tracy, setting goals era, and we all get that but certainly I don't, I don't feel smart goals cut it. And he had a beautiful way of expressing it. And he said, to stop setting goals in the future that are based on the past but set goals in the present that are based on the future. Yes. Which I thought was a lovely, lovely distinction and what I'm hearing you say is about just that shift in identity, to set goals based on a future identity, rather than a previous identity?
Yeah, yeah, I think one thing I've learned is you can't delete your identity, sorry I don't mean it quite like that I don't mean brain washing, but you can't delete all of those parts of you that kept you safe and worked really well. Yeah. Because they are part of who you are. I remember working with a CEO, once who had some feedback, 360 feedback that said - easy to connect with, hard to get to know. And it was 'what's all that about? What's that about? That sounds counterintuitive.' but what it was was he had been an army child. So he changed schools every 18 months, he got really good at connecting with people and getting into the tribe, or into the crowd. But then wouldn't let people get any closer, because he knew he was going. So that behaviour, and that was part of who he was, because that was a strategy that subconsciously he had formed that was successful for him, and kept him safe when he was growing up. But when he was a CEO, people were thinking he was a bit contradictory and a bit aloof and a bit false, really, because you were so friendly, but so hard to get to know. So the thing is, we have these fears, and then we have these parts of our makeup. But the question is, does it have you? Or do you have it? Once you know, and you've identified it, what you can then do is notice when it comes knocking, you know, when it's in the driving seat, elbow it out and put in your passenger seat or the back and say no, no!! I have a fear of failure, for example and that means that I'm really good at my job, I never miss a deadline. And I look good all the time. Let's use it to make me successful at my job. But let's recognise when it provides severe limitations around the way that I interact with my peers and the way I treat those beneath me, and how I might be tending to control them because I'm so afraid of failure. So I keep the good bit, but I've managed the bad bit because I now know that that I have it.
Yeah, that's interesting. And Andy you've been part of my journey on all of that, you know, immunity to change stuff. I know over the last 18 months, two years, I've been doing some work on me - the getting to know me bit, the shadow stuff. And here's me stating it publicly, regularly consoling and cuddling my six year old Pete and my 14 year old Pete because they show up under stressful situations. And that identity still wrapped inside me somewhere. And so I've learned a little bit of is just consoling and comforting and putting an arm around them and giving them a hug for what they were experiencing then. And it sounds a bit woolly but it's made such a difference to my present self.
Yeah, I completely understand that. Hey, I can see the six year old me that creates in me the need to be liked and need to be attached because I got lost on a, I remember it, I was on a North sea ferry going from Newcastle to Norway, and I got lost. And when you're six and anyone listening to this might might know the specific statistics but there's something I read, which really hit home which said something like, when you're six, your appreciation at the time means that if you're separated from someone for five minutes, then you've lost them forever. Yeah, so the trauma of losing your parents, which is in effect, what I went through, I've written them off, I didn't know that I was alone in the world, wherever, for a few minutes. And I can't feel the trauma of it now but I can bloody remember I can see the six year old me running up, running up and down these corridors of cabins on this boat. And then the relief of finding my Mum. But I'm certain you know, I haven't sat down with any shrink or anything. I've had to unpack it. But I'm certain that that experience made me, along with other things like how I'm wired and you know, the older I get the more I'm like my dad who was a deep introvert. And so, you know, there are lots of different things that come in the longer you go that you recognise and having a bit of compassion for yourself also teaches you how to have compassion for others.
Find out find in. Nice, yes. Andy I'll ask you one more question, then we might dive into some quickfire questions. I love that very simple, but profound distinction between does it have you? Or do you have it? Whatever the it is - pre and post your event, what used to have you that you now have it?
I think there is an element that we just talked around about needing to please others, needing to fit in, worrying about, I mean, some of this was a journey, and maybe I was on anyway but giving maybe undue consideration for what other people thought. I mean on one level, I don't care. You know, I don't care, people can take me or leave me. But on a much deeper level. There is part of me that that still does because I just said you can't delete this stuff. But that I recognise now where I'm going. Why am I doing that? Why am I thinking that? And so I now have it and I think the other thing was just the draw through, just the blind assumption that we just pushed on, made a living, hopefully did good work and on we go to well, where? What difference am I making in the world? Where am I? Where am I headed? And what part can I play in the world that will leave a bit of a mark on it after I after I've gone? I did do a lot of meditation during that period as it helped me through so this was just a little bit more of a sense of being in the now. Don't get me wrong, I still sometimes.... two or three days ago, I beat my best time so it's still there, it's still there. But I laugh at myself when I do it and hey, I was in the army and we used to say no pain, no gain. Yeah. We also used to say remember your rifle was made by the lowest bidder but that's another story. Don't share a foxhole with a brave man. That was another one. I do think that just that calming down and slowing down is something that means that more more often than not I have it but it's still sometimes has me - it's a work in progress. And I think for most of us it is.
Cool, Andy, thank you so much. The rawness, the authenticity, the insights, I could talk for longer but I'm really grateful for, one the time and the sharing of your your story pre and post, a special thank you. I might just finish with four or five quickfire questions just to kind of lighten up a little bit. The answers you've got to answer one or the other
So rugby or football - rugby.
Sunrise or sunset - sunrise.
Do we have one life or many lives - one.
A book that's changed your life -The Power of Now.
And your favourite personal development quote -
Which one which one you've stumped me here Pete I've got so many.
We're a bit of a collector of these things aren't we
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I do love this idea of
Do you have it? Or does it have you? Yeah. And now you just got me You give me an amygdala hijack. There mate
I like that too. And I loved what you said, you know, slow down and look up.
Yeah, yeah. Well, it helps so much. It helped me so much. That moment that helped me realise what was going on. Yeah. Okay, here's my quote. And this is one that I told you that neuroscientists amongst you will explain this when you stop trying to think about something. Yeah. There's one challenge. That is not quite a quote, although it is a quote because I'm because it resonated when I read it. It's Stephen Covey's book, The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
And the challenge is, don't talk your way out of something you behave your way into?
Or are you talking your way out of something that you've behaved your way into?
Or I wonder if you are talking your way? That's probably it when you're coaching, it's not quite so confrontational, but it really puts you back and it shines a mirror. Sorry, it holds a mirror. I wonder if you're talking you are talking your way out of something you are behaving your way into? I find that is really great. And the other one, sorry, now you got me going? is the greatest question I find that picks up a whole load of really difficult situations, particularly around conflict is how can you explain the current situation without blaming any one person or group of people in the system?
Great question. Great question. I'm a bit of a question geek and I love collecting questions that just gonna smash people's brains a little bit, right. Andy the first one, the previous one that I've heard, which I think it's kind of interesting here. You can't. I wonder if we're talking ourselves out of something we've behaved ourselves into. Is the opposite. I wonder if we can talk ourselves into something we're behaving ourselves out of. You know, the dilemmas. I appreciate the time, the candour, the wisdom. I'll look forward too many more conversations with you overall, over a beer or wine.
Well, thank you No I've really enjoyed it its been cathartic
