Pete Clark
Welcome to this week's edition of The Freedom Fridays podcast. I have a guest today who is on the next page to me as in, he's already an established author. He is an established podcast host, and has interviewed some of the people I would love to chat to. He is a keynote speaker. And I've just found out he is an executive coach. So welcome to Shane Hatton.
Shane Hatton
Shane, thank you so much. That's a very, very kind introduction.
Pete Clark
Well, look, mate, it's all about perception. And you're doing some great stuff out there. So I feel it's, it's a pleasure and a privilege to be hosting you in this conversation. Thank you. Shane, I start with the same question, although I've changed it for season two. And because of the work that you do the expertise in the field that you play, in that work, what does freedom mean?
Shane Hatton
See, a lot of people their opening podcast question is like, where did you grow up? Or? What was your first job? I mean, the first question I asked in my podcast is, where were you born? What was your first job? And what do you do now? I feel like you take it and we bypass the small talk, which I really love. And we actually get to some some really meaningful conversation right from the get go. And so thank you, thank you for that. It's such a big question. And my instinctive response when I hear the word freedom, and what does freedom look look like and play out, in my context, is to instinctively imagine a life or business or, you know, practice, where rules don't exist. Like my immediate thought is to go, Okay, where do I go to where the rules don't exist? And I can just throw out the rulebook, do some things. And I go, how much more freedom would I have? If I did, if I could just do that? But then I immediately catch myself in that thought that okay, what would it actually look like if I got to throw out the rulebook that I operate to and play to? Yeah, and actually, I don't even think I like that, either. And so I hear I hear that question. And I get caught in this immediate tension. And the tension is between is freedom life without rules? Or is, do I get more freedom in my life with rules? And I think the answer is yes. Because in my mind, I, I can see the benefit of both. And so that's my that's the first thing that comes to mind when you when you ask that question.
Pete Clark
Cool. Well, let's get into that in a second. Let me rephrase the question then with the, with the people that you work with, in the help that you try and give them the support that you're trying to help them, you know, see beyond themselves, what do you feel that they are tied to? That you're trying to help them get freedom from?
Shane Hatton
Yeah, even a greater question. I think, again, it's probably a very similar answer. It is a set of rules that a person has been living by their entire life. Yep, that they either are unconsciously living out or playing to, or consciously aware of those rules, but not really sure about how they can disconnect from that set of rules that they play to. So I think a lot of the conversations I have with people, helping them raise their awareness of this internal rulebook that they're playing to in their life, and I go back, and I think to when I first started my business, someone said to me, they gave me probably one of the best pieces of advice, they said, figure out what game you're playing. And then when you figure out what game you're playing, you'll know what rules to play to. And when you know what rules to play to, it'll stop you from taking on really well meaning but bad advice. And that was such a helpful piece of insight for me. And so it's allowed me to become more aware of the rules that I'm playing to. So that actually helps you to play the game that I'm playing a whole lot better.
Pete Clark
Now, I think I understand what you mean by can I just check maybe for the listeners, what do you mean by the game that you're playing? I'm assuming you don't mean monopoly?
Shane Hatton
I mean, I'm a very competitive board game person. And so I could I could mean monopoly. In one sense. I think the game that I'm playing could be a whole lot of different spheres of life. For me, it could be the business game that I'm playing, like, it could be how am I running my business? As a solo entrepreneur, I play to a set of rules. And that is a that's the game that I play as opposed to someone who's potentially building a large business that they're scaling. It could mean the game that I play in terms of my own personal life and where I sit, I feel like I'm supposed to be is it the, you know, married with two kids with a white picket fence? Like, is that the game that I'm playing the game of life? It could be the friendship game, like what kind of friendships do I want to have around me in my life, there's a whole bunch of these different games and so they potentially all have very different set of rules that come with it.
Pete Clark
Yeah. One of the best and simplest descriptions I've heard that defines this was, and I think we may both have been involved in these groups over the last few years, it was a chap who was selling boats. You may even know the story, he was selling boats. And he went through a community experience where he recognised that the game he was in was not selling boats, the game he was in was connecting families. He did it through selling boats. And I wonder if that was what you meant, as in, you do these podcasts and trainings and you coach people, and yet the game I'm playing is something different and bigger, perhaps.
Shane Hatton
Yeah, yep. I mean, there is there is a bigger game attached to a lot of the work that I know for me personally, but also the people that I work with, you know, I work with a lot of people who are in corporate jobs and roles. And a lot of those people tend to be in human resources. And people who get into that role, because they're attracted to helping people and you know, making a difference. And I remember having conversations with people really early on, and a lot of the work that I was doing was helping people to, I guess, have more influence in their workplace or in their role. And I started talking to people and I realised that when I said the word influence, they almost shrunk back a little bit when I said that word. And when I kind of started to dig a little bit below the surface, people told me they're going, you know, what I actually don't really care about influence, what I really want is I want to make an impact, I want to make a difference. And they were in that space, because they got in because they wanted to help people, and then over time get pulled into the transactional nature of their work, and they get pulled out of the bigger game that they want to be playing. So yeah, I think to some extent, we all have the game that we're playing, which is right in front of us, and also the bigger game that we would like to be playing somewhere along the line.
Pete Clark
I'm going to go back to something you said earlier, Shane, if you don't mind you, you talked about the leaders and the clients and the customers that you work with trying to help them with their awareness of some of the rules that they live by consciously and unconsciously. I'd be interested in if you've got any insights about the leaders that you speak to? What are some of the common rules that they live by unconsciously? And it's a two prong question, which are often helpful. But what are the ones that are least helpful?
Shane Hatton
Great question. I mean, when I think about rules, and I probably should elaborate on that a little bit more for people who are listening, I imagine that sitting inside of me is this little rulebook that I've written over time that I carry around, and my my background early on, was in, in kind of counselling, and we talk about these sorts of expectations. So the expectations of self, expectations of others, and expectations of the world in general. And those expectations are about the way that we prefer things to be. And it could be the way that we were raised, it could be based on our experiences. So a really common one is we say, well, I expect in my life that people would be kind, and it's an expectation of others, and it's an expectation of the world. And then when you dig below the surface of that, and you ask someone, so where is that rule that says that people in the world should be kind? Where's that written? Where is it kind of point to that rule that exists, and nobody can. Now the world's a whole lot better. And it's a whole lot nicer when people are kind, but it's actually not a rule. But based on our upbringing, what we were taught, you know, we were always told to use our manners and to be nice to people and be kind. And so we put that book in that rule into the rulebook, and we carry that around. And we do that in all kinds of areas of our life. And then what ends up happening is one day we show up into work, and or we show up into a leadership position. And we start to assess everybody else in our team or in our organisation or in our world based on the rulebook that we've written in our entire life. And we realise that other people have very different sets of rules that they play to. And so there's this immediate conflict. And it's like, well, who's right and who's wrong? And what's actually, it's not the real the right question, because we actually both just carry different set of rules. But we then need to start to adapt. If you had a we, we now collectively, work together in a way that's helpful and productive. And so, I mean, if you think about if we got to the questions like, what are some of the unconscious rules that are unhelpful to us? Think about an experience you had with maybe your first leader or your first manager, that was maybe a really positive experience or potentially a really negative experience. What do you take out of that? And how does that shape the rules in the way that you show up as a leader down the track? So someone might have someone who was a very hands on leader, meaning that they wanted to be in the detail of everything they wanted to be, you know, really kind of? Yeah, almost to the extent of micromanaging and you go okay, this is the way that leaders are supposed to operate. And now when I'm in the position of leadership myself, now what I do is I, I jump into the detail and I get hands on with everything. And I realised that the person that I'm working with wants more autonomy and wants a little bit more distance between me and that person. And it can create that it like that initial conflict that exists because they go, well, that's just the way that I've always done things. So it could exist across a whole bunch of different areas, it could be around how much autonomy? Do you give somebody, it could be around? What's the way that we collaborate or work on this team? Should I be friendly with a person on my team? Or should I keep it strictly professional? So they ask about a person's weekend? Or should I just keep it entirely focused on work? There are literally 1000 different rules that we show with every day. And we don't know that those rules are not upheld by everybody until we have a conversation and we realise hey, they've got a different rulebook to the one that I'm operating to.
Pete Clark
It reminds me of the the maxim that fish don't see water. Yeah. And so we swim around in our lives, and we don't really see it, because we're in it there for not even aware of the rules that were existing, but until someone else's rules that are perhaps the opposite bump up against ours, and that didn't feel good, right, that felt bad. And it's only till that happens, we realise we're immersed in our own rulemaking if you like,
Shane Hatton
Yeah, it's really true. I share an experience, I've just written a new book that's all around culture, which is part of this kind of conversation around the internal rules and expectations that we have of each other. And it's, it's that exact metaphor, which is we're consistently immersed in water, or we're consistently immersed in culture, almost our entire life and career. And then someone says, Hey, can you try and make sense of what it is? Or what water is? Or and you go, Oh, my gosh, I didn't know I'd never even known existed until now you've pointed it out to me. It's a bit like when you're having lunch with someone and you recognise they have food in their teeth. Once you see it, it's really hard to unsee it again.
Pete Clark
You can't unsee it. And based on your experience, Shane, are there common rules that leaders tend to operate? You know, the good ones, and the not so good ones are the kind of common ones that show up?
Shane Hatton
Yeah, I mean, that comes back to a question around like, what would we really consider helpful or unhelpful rules in our life that we carry. And the challenge about that is that it can be really hard to define what is helpful and what's not. Because it changes from context to context. And I think about, you know, imagine some organisations where they're on call 24/7, you think of a paramedic, or you think of a doctor, or you think of a shift worker, you think of these people who are just consistently on call. And so for them to get a phone call on Saturday morning at 8am isn't surprising to them. And they sign up for and they're actually okay with, it's completely normal and healthy. Now, think about another organisation that if you got a phone call at 8am, on a Saturday morning, it would be just totally out of character for that business. And you would go that's so unhealthy, and my manager doesn't let me take my weekends. It's kind of the same thing, but in very different contexts. So what is healthy in one context is actually really toxic within another. So I find it really challenging to try and say like, what are the healthy and helpful rules that we play to? And what are the really unhealthy and unhelpful ones? Now, I think there are some bigger, maybe moral questions that we could, you know, look at and, you know, much bigger kind of general rules that we could look at. But I think in terms of the specifics, it's it's so different based on your context and your environment.
Pete Clark
Reminds me of the story up, I think it's a story. I don't even know if it's true. And it doesn't really matter, because I think it makes a great point. You've probably heard it the two brothers who are interviewed about their father who's on death row. And the two brothers are interviewed about the death penalty, what do you think, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they're both asked the same question at the end of the interview. How did you turn out like you have and one brother was in jail himself. The other brother, you know, we'd argue as a pillar in society, you know, married kids, you typical 2.2 Kids in white picket fence, how did you turn out like you have? And they both gave the same answer. But what do you expect with a dad like mine? Now what what causes one to go one way and when to go the other? Who knows, right?
Pete Clark
Yeah. So you know, even to your your point around my first leader, you know, who was you know, authoritarian, or laissez faire? Would you expect with my first leader being like that? Now, what causes us to go one way or the other? Um, my personal view is I'm happy for that to be a bit of a mystery.
Shane Hatton
Yeah, yeah. I agree. I read a book years ago, that was that was called the crucibles of leadership. And it was talking about those really, you know, toxic, unhelpful and unhealthy leadership experiences that you've had, are often teaching you really valuable lessons for the future as they refine you and help you become a better leader. And so you've got some people who are in Leadership going, why are you such a great leader? And they say, well, I had this great role model when I was starting out in leadership. And you ask another person, why are you such a great leader? And they go, because I had a really terrible leader as a first thing. I never wanted to be anything like that person.
Pete Clark
Yeah. So Shane, I'm conscious, you said, You've written just written in about to be published a book on culture, I'd love to dive into that for a second, because it's one of the topics that I think everyone knows about, but no one really knows about. Everyone uses the word. And often, I'd say blames culture, on the results, our retention strategy on people leaving, etc, etc. It's and I'm not sure often, whether they know what they mean by it, and whether culture is the culprit or not. So let me start with see if you can help illuminate for listeners, what is in your view "culture"?
Shane Hatton
And that is the million dollar question. And that is why I wrote a book called "Let's Talk Culture", because I've been wrestling with the same thing. Funnily enough, you mentioned the story about the goldfish before, it's the opening story in the book. It was a commencement speech by David Foster Wallace. And it's the story the two goldfish are swimming through the water and the other one passes by and says, "Morning boys, how's the water?", they swim on for a little bit, no one looks at the other one and says, "What the hell is water?". And it's that whole dilemma of we're often told culture is this competitive advantage. It's the thing that attracts all the really great people to your organisation. It keeps them involved. And everywhere I go, I ask the exact same question, what is culture? And I'm, I'm actually perplexed with how many different responses I get from that. So last year, I ran a research project here in Australia, and we asked 1000 Australian managers to give us their best definition of culture, we actually asked them two questions. The first question was, Do you know how to define organisational and team culture? And the response was 97% said yes, we know how to define organisational culture, which was quite surprising. Yes, obviously, very self-inflated perspective. Yeah. So naturally, the follow up question was that to that was, will give us your definition of organisational and team culture? And less than one in 10 could actually give us a good definition of what cultural was or a sort of consistent definition of what culture was. Most people describe the outcomes of culture. So they talked about, you know, they said things like, our organisation is inclusive, or it's flexible, or our, you know, our culture, it's the vibe of our place, it's, you know, people get along and they collaborate well. And then there was this kind of smaller group of people. And they said, culture is essentially the values, the beliefs and the expectations that guide and inform our decisions. It was this kind of really, this very well crafted definition. And as I was looking through the results, I was working with McCrindle, who, the research partner on this and I was going through their kind of raw data, and I saw this definition show up, it was always the same as maybe half of it or a full version of it, like maybe a few kind of key words from it. And I thought to myself, if I was a manager, and I was asked to define culture, and I said, I could do it. And then the next question, I was called out for not being able to do it, what would be my natural response? And so I thought to myself, I'll just quickly define organisational culture into Google. So Google, I typed to find organisational culture. And the first thing that came up at the top of the search results was this word for word, the definition that this one in 10 people had given us. And so it really taught me a lot that even though we talk a lot about culture, very, very few people actually really understand what culture is, which is a big challenge.
Pete Clark
So you know, my next question. What is culture?
Shane Hatton
Look, the answer to the definition question around culture is what's the definition of culture? They say, you know, the most simplest form is the culture is the way that we do things around here. And the answer to that is yes. Now, other people would argue that with that, and they would say, Well, no culture is made up of the systems and the practices and the norms and the beliefs and the expectations. And the answer that question is, yes, it is also, all of those things, and so nobody's wrong in the definition of culture. I think I often think about it like, it's like wine tasting. People would say, you know, when you go wine tasting, they go, Well, how do you describe wine? And you know, most people would say it's good or bad. But if you ask like a real wine connoisseur, they would taste it and they would say it has these notes are it has these, you know, these flavours and there's a whole profile that sits below it, and they're both right. The person who says the wines good, and the person who says the one's bad is, is just as right as the person who says this wine has a floral note of this and a hint of that, but they're just very different perspectives on it. And so, when I looked into the research around culture, between kind of like the late 60s and the early 90s, when culture was like really coming to be there was 54 different academic definitions of culture. 54! And thankfully, someone had already pulled them together. And what I did is I looked at, okay, what do all of these definitions have in common, and they had four really common characteristics. The first one is that every definition talked about culture as being something that's collective, meaning that culture doesn't exist in isolation. So it's not that you have a culture Pete and I have a culture, it's we have a culture together. So when teams are operating, there has to have its collective balance. So it said definitions had things like norms or members, or organisations or assumptions or some kind of group collaborative nature to it. The second thing is that culture, all the definitions of culture had some kind of unseen element to it. So it was an intangible thing that people disliked. So people describe as the vibe of the place or, you know, they talk about the energy or the spirit or the soul, all those different things. But there were words like values and beliefs and understandings and meanings. Now, how do you point to somebody's beliefs? How do you point to somebody's values, you can't be yet it's a such an integral role and element of culture. So there's an unseen element to it. And the third was that is it actual visible element to culture, or there's a seen element and observable element. And what I mean by that is, you can point to behaviours in our organisation that are a representation of our culture. So you can point to behaviours, or systems or rituals and patterns. And that can kind of make up an element of our culture. So there has to be something that you can see and observe. And the last week thing that had had in common was that there was there was a social learning element to culture, which is that culture was learned, and it was dynamic, which means that people could come in, it could go out, and it could change, or it could stay the same, you know, but it was always kind of evolving in some way. So that those kind of four things that it was collective, it had a scene an unseen element, and that it was a social learning element kind of led me to talk about culture is that culture is what we, when we look around the people around us on our team, and we look at what we can see. And we interpret what we can't see. So we look at the way a person's behaving. And we use that behaviour to interpret the unspoken beliefs or values of that team. And we use that information to learn and adapt so that we can essentially fit in and belong on that team. So it's not a definition, but I think it helps us to see a bit more of the breadth and depth of culture.
Pete Clark
I think that's really helpful. Shane, it's, it's practical. It's, it's kind of given this intangible thing called culture, a little bit of tangibility. But I've been struck and caged by rules. Yeah. And yet, here are some rules, because people like a little bit of certainty, but not too much it would appear. Yeah, one of the rules that you hear in culture conversations is all it takes a long time to change culture. True or False?
Shane Hatton
True and False. Because the thing is, I would typically say, Yeah, culture can take a long time to change. And the reason why I say that is because, you know, I was having a conversation in the interview with the book with a guy with an eau de Matau. And he talked about this idea of organisational memory. And, you know, I think about it, like memory foam. Culture can be so hard to change, because the new culture is always competing against your organisational memory. So it depends on the who the people are, who are listening to this could just be a household, it could be a business owner, it could be a person working in corporate environment, everything that you want to do that's new is trying to compete with the memory of the old. And so you will always be kind of pushing and pulling to try and get it to unstick or you know, to kind of reshape from the way it was. So it can take a long time. So people often don't give culture change enough time for it to actually fully embed. And it's always you think about if you've had 20 years embedding a culture, you're not going to change it in six months. However, if we go back to 2001 and look at what happened with the atrocities of September 11. And look at airline travel culture. How that completely was transformed within a matter of weeks and days even. Look at the last two years of a pandemic almost immediately 20-30 years of ways of working has been uprooted and completely change and we've changed a culture around work. So I get the both/and rather than the either/or but yes, generally it takes it takes a long time to shift.
Pete Clark
And is it your understanding and your expertise that you can have different cultures within the same organisation?
Shane Hatton
Yeah, I think we do. Either by default, which is just the fact that we've never done anything intentionally to create culture within our organisation. I think yes, it's a yes...and. And the yes...and is that organisations spend a lot of time trying to create a collective culture. And so there is an organisation that you might say, Hey, I might go and work for Microsoft, because they got a really great flexible culture. And so your awareness of the organisation as a collective is that they've got a very flexible culture. And yet, you could go and work in a team within, say, any kind of organisation and recognise that your, your managers micromanaging you not letting you work wherever you want. And the culture doesn't feel flexible, even though you might look at the collective and say it actually is a really flexible culture. So there is that kind of macro culture, but more often than not, your experience is defined by your kind of micro culture that sits within that.
Pete Clark
Can I present a dilemma to you that often I hear some of my clients talk to, and when recruiting, one of the strongest criteria for recruitment is often culture fit, whatever they mean by that. And yet, they're on this journey to evolve as a culture. And so they tend to recruit for current culture, not future culture, because the person that comes in that's maybe got sharp elbows, that's maybe not quite a fit right now, but will be a brilliant fit in the future gets kind of rejected because our where they weren't a good culture fit. Helped resolve that dilemma for them, what would what should they do?
Shane Hatton
Yeah, I was doing an interview in the book with Sameer Srivastava. Sameer was talking through, they did a research project, he's from Berkeley, runs the culture initiative over there. And they did a a research project where they essentially analysed the written communication of over a million kind of pieces of electronic communication. So emails, Slack channels, all of that from within an organisation. And what they wanted to do was look at how people adapted to cultural language when they were coming into an organisation. And they use that adaptability to determine whether or not a person would get promoted within the organisation, or whether they would exit the organisation. And they could based on a person's ability to adapt to the way that other people were talking and using the language, they could actually predict whether a person was going to get promoted or leave the organisation, it was actually quite remarkable. But it was in the conversation with him where he was talking about how we often hire for what you're saying is this cultural fit. And later on, I hear more people now saying, we're hiring for culture add. Which is about what did they bring to our culture? And we're hearing a lot more of that language. But he actually introduced the third option, which was this idea of hiring for cultural adaptability. Which is, can a person grow with your culture? Can a person adapt with your culture, which is actually I think, a much better way and more helpful way of looking at it, because culture is dynamic, it changes, it's not static, it changes from one day to the next. And some people who want like what you've said, come in at the organisation, when it's in this stage, yes, they might fit the culture for where it is now. But will they be able to adapt and grow with the culture of where it needs to be in the next 12 months or 18 months?
Pete Clark
One of the, for me, simplest and yet profound definitions I've heard to describe culture was it's the lingering effect of every interaction throughout the business. And I thought that was lovely, because certainly a lot of clients I work with the leaders I work with don't really fully appreciate every moment is an interaction, and that's having an additive or subtractive effect on the current or future culture.
Shane Hatton
I really liked that. Just for the sake of the last conversation, it was Sameer Srivastava. I'm gonna get his name really wrong. But he's the associate professor at the Haas Business School at the University of California. What you're touching on here, which I really like is we open this conversation by talking about this kind of internal rulebook that we carry around. And in my mind, when I talk about the internal rulebook, it's the really unseen elements of culture. So it's again, how do I point to your beliefs? How do I point to our values? It's really, really hard to do that. So how do we interpret or how do we understand your beliefs and your values and your rules? Well, we understand that based on my interaction with you, and so, when I encounter you and you ask me about my weekend, I all of a sudden kind of sit back and go, maybe this person actually cares about me as a person not just about my role, or when I have a conversation with a person I bring up the what they got up to on the weekend. They say, It's none of your business. You know, that's just keep it strictly professional. You get an insight into the unseen elements of that person's beliefs and values and expectations and rules. And so every single interaction that we have with someone in the workplace outside of the workplace is actually demonstrating to other people this unobservable, or this invisible, intangible element of our culture, that in the kind of rulebook that we're playing to. So yeah, it's really, really important to be aware of that.
Pete Clark
I read recently that, again I can't remember the source, in this startup can a small business world, the first 10 employees pretty much set the culture and the next 500 or so align whether or not again, question true or false? And whatever answer you give me, what could we do to shift that? If that's the case, because I often find that the first 10 employees soccer, are the ones that are doing the recruiting.
Shane Hatton
Yeah, big one. I mean, you'd see this a lot in the kind of tech startup space, because, you know, essentially, they're pulling talented people together. And they're building a business based around what is really talent and skill set. And so culture really early on isn't always necessarily the forefront of conversation, because you've got some people who are typically recruiting friends, and they're like, hey, would you come and work for free and in exchange for a percentage share in our business. And so culture isn't a big conversation. But yet as as it starts to scale, quickly, culture becomes a very important conversation, because all of a sudden, they start realising, hey, we need to get people around here that are going to help create an environment where our great people don't want to leave that they actually want to come and work for us. And they also want to stay. So it does become a really important conversation.
Shane Hatton
I would say culture is averages, not aspirations. And what I mean by that is, is culture is our collective norm. And it's the way that we will do things collectively. So if you have 70% of your business, who are inclusive, you know, who are open to feedback and challenging each other, and 30%, who are not, you more likely to have a culture that is open to inclusivity, and feedback and challenging people's ideas as if it was compared to if it was flipped. Now you might have 30%, who really love that, and 70%, who hate it. Now, you could say we're inclusive, that's our culture. But if 70% aren't inclusive, you don't have an inclusive culture.
Shane Hatton
So that isn't to say that culture can't be aspirational. Because I think culture can be so we go, okay, we want to create a culture that's aspirational, which is, we want to have an inclusive culture. Now, right now, we may not have one, but we can work towards that. And so when those 10, people are gathering around to start recruiting, whatever is the kind of average of that group is the kind of pre existing culture. But as you start to bring more people in, you can actually start to disrupt that and start to shift that now, unfortunately, that if you don't consider culture in the conversation, we tend to attract people who are like us. And we want people around us who are like us. And I think in our lives, familiarity makes us comfortable, but difference makes us better. And we typically don't look for difference, because we would rather familiarity and comfort. And so I have this kind of this thought, or this idea that I unpack in the book, which is culture is about being aligned at the core and inclusive at the edge. And I think about it like if you imagine culture is this kind of me, you and us. It's what are my expectations of you Pete? And Pete, what are your expectations of me? But then on top of that, what are the organisation's expect expectations of us? And right in the middle of that Venn diagram, I think is this aligned core? And people would say, Okay, well, there's great culture is the goal of great culture to remove like to reduce the Venn down to just one circle so that everybody's aligned. And I think that's not the goal of culture. Because then what you end up with is this very homogenous, beige disinteresting kind of replication of people. But I think, if we're inclusive, if we're aligned at the core, then the big things that we care about overlap. But being inclusive at the edges means that we actually value those edges, because those edges make us better. So you don't have to agree with everything in the culture to be aligned in the culture. And you probably shouldn't like because we all are so different. But we can be aligned to the things that really matter for us, which help us to be able to move forward together.
Unknown Speaker
In the work that you do with organisation, Shane as part of that alignment at the core, about clarity of purpose?
Unknown Speaker
There's definitely a sense of purpose that comes into the conversation. For me, it's about clarity of expectations. And this is where I guess I come back to the rulebook conversation. Is when I've got a certain set of expectations it's coming out of that rulebook. So I have an expectation of the way that we're going to work together Pete. So for example, my expectation is if someone has a problem, they come and talk to me directly. And that's my expectation of you. Now, your expectation of me might be that if you've got a problem with me go and talk to my manager. Now, those expectations aren't aligned. But I think what we can agree on is that we both want an organisation where feedback is valued. We actually both want that even though we go about it differently. We want a culture which has feedback is valued. So we need to work out where do we align, okay, we're on the same page here that we want, we want feedback. But where we need the differences to come in to challenge the way that we think about it is to go, hey, what's the best way that we challenge each other on this team? And maybe it's face to face, or maybe it's with somebody else, but we've got to actually talk about it. And so what we do is we clarify the expectations that we have of each other. And then we talk about what that actually means in practicality. So we look at what aligns us, and then how does that play out day to day for us?
Unknown Speaker
I'm kind of leading the witness here. The work that you do with leaders? Do they fully appreciate the impact they have on culture?
Unknown Speaker
That's a good question. In most part, they appreciate the impact culture has on an organisation. So so when we did our research, it was it was close to 99% of people said that culture is integral to an organisation and team success. So when we ask people does culture matter? The answer is yes, absolutely. We asked them, Where does it matter? They say psychological safety and inclusion and engagement and retention in creativity and ideas and achievement of goals. They say, yes, it contributes to all of these things. And then we asked questions like, can culture be influenced? And half say, no. Half said, no, it just happens. And that was quite confronting to me. And then we asked them, can you influence the culture of your organisation? And most people said, yeah, maybe I can influence my team culture. But probably only half of them say that they can influence anywhere outside of their team's culture. And so there's one sense that people get that culture matters, but I don't really fully understand think they appreciate just how much they can influence the culture of their team and the broader organisation.
Unknown Speaker
I heard someone from CSIRO speak recently, and when she was asked, what's the greatest barrier for Australia as a country, which we're recording this in? What's the greatest barrier for Australia as a country to be more innovative? And she gave a wry smile and said, the enemy is us. We're our own worst enemy. And I wonder how often you find that in the teams and the organisations that you deal with that? The enemy is us.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, the enemy us. I think in the context of the teams that I work with, I think it's the lack of intentionality about certain things cause us to causes us to live unaware of certain things. So when we're, when we're not intentional about the culture of our team, we don't live aware of the culture of our team, we do things because we kind of just interpret. There's a really great quote by Tory Eletto, and basically says that what's not communicated is felt, what's felt is interpreted and what's interpreted as often inaccurate. And so one of the challenges we have is, you know, when I talk to people about culture, they go, Oh, we've got a really good team culture, but we've never done anything intentionally about our culture. And the truth is, you can actually create a really great team culture just by having a great average. And you've got really good people who bring a certain way of doing things that actually align and work really well together. So you can create culture unintentionally. But you could also create really toxic culture, unintentionally. And so the same people that can help build a really, really great culture could also create a really healthy, a really unhealthy culture. And so we can be our own worst enemy and the whole approach to culture. But I think the key word for me is intentionality and awareness is are we intentional with the culture we're creating? And are we living more aware of how that's being shaped?
Pete Clark
I'm glad you mentioned the intentionality word because I want to pick up on that a lot of the conversations I'm having with the clients I work with everyone is smashed on time. Everyone's got too much on their plate. Everyone's got dozens and dozens of priorities. And yet everyone's talking about growth. So when I asked them a question like so, how do you intend to grow intentionally? They don't really answer the question. But they don't really know what in doing something intentionally means, because I haven't got the time to do that. So if you were advising someone about intentionality, are there any top pocket tips, you know, simple things that we could do to be more intentional about culture or leadership or any practices that you think would be valuable.
Unknown Speaker
When I wrote my first book, "Leave The Room" when I talked about this idea that leadership is a is a ground up process, not a top down process. And I use the example of this mango tree that we had growing up. And I like the metaphor of a tree, because I think when you think about growth, it's a really nice kind of metaphor for bringing it together. I think growth is a process from health, to growth, to results. And we often get that back to front, we often try to get results and by driving growth, and then our health suffers as a result of that. And I think, you know, when it comes to like actual, you know, putting in leadership context, we go, Hey, we've got to achieve these certain results. And so what do we do, we get really demanding of people towards growth. And as a result of that the health of our team or the culture of our team really suffers. Whereas I've found that more often, when you get the health of your team, right, the health of your leadership, the health of the people, they're in a really good place. And so they grow. And when they grow, they produce results. And so for me, it's always like, get the process the right way around. And so I always ask two things. Number one, what are the things that are going to create healthy you as a leader? What are the things that you need to be doing? And I think like, across the the areas, I look at kind of four big ones. So as a leader, I'm always asking myself these four areas. Number one, what's the place where I rest? Like, what's what does rest look like? For me? So example, you know, getting eight hours of sleep at night, not staying up all night, and being in a really horrible place, when you show up to work the next day? What does it look like to switch off on the weekends? For me, it's about the people that I do leadership with, it's around community. So what are the people that I am in community with that are who are helping make me better and that also supporting me? Because leadership is, is hard. Like, it's got lots of highs and lows, and we need people around us for that. It's around for me a place of learning, like personal learning. So where's the space that I have where I'm inputting into me as the leader? Whether it's reading, whether it's, you know, podcasts, whatever it is, like, what's the space of learning for you? And then the last thing is like, what's the thing that lights me up? You know, what's the thing that just fills my energy? So it could just be going in going for a walk on the beach, getting in nature, going for a run? What's the thing that lights me up? So when I get those things right in the personal level as a leader, as a leader, I'm growing. And when I'm growing, I'm producing results. So those would be the kind of quick tips for me.
Pete Clark
And look probably a lifetime to learn them. Right?
Shane Hatton
Usually you learn them from getting it wrong so often.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And I think that's, that's really practical share nothing rest, community, learning and energy. If we put our attention on those often intangibles, often oh, I haven't got the time. Well, usually our body or our community will make the time for us.
Shane Hatton
Yeah, exactly. I often think about it as a metaphorical I always go like, it's a bed, a table, a chair and a lamp. For me, I'm like the bed is rest. The table is community. The chair is like thinking, learning and growing. And the lamp is the thing that lights me up. And always just kind of like it's a really simple metaphor, but I imagined like a room that's furnished with those things. And I go, okay, if I'm looking at the room right now, what's missing? And like, am I living in a room with no bed? Or am I living in a room with no lamp and are living in a room with no chair or a table? Like, what's the thing that's missing from right now? And how do I get that back?
Unknown Speaker
I think that's a beautiful metaphor, Shane. And with your permission, I might steal that with pride.
Shane Hatton
Yeah, of course, please do.
Pete Clark
And I might just pause there just to maybe bring our conversation to a close given the time. And I'm going to ask you three or four quickfire questions, if I may, just to kind of run us off? But first of all, thank you for sharing some insights. Please give us the show notes about your current book and the one you've got coming out. We'll put that in for those people that are interested. I certainly am. A couple of quickfire questions, then what's what's a rule that you live by?
Unknown Speaker
Oh, great question. For me that probably one of the biggest ones that I rules that I live by, is that I always want to be a bigger champion of people's future than I am a critic of their past.
Pete Clark
Nice. What's a rule that you like to break?
Unknown Speaker
Oh, my gosh, almost anything creatively? If I can, if I can find something that just pushes the boundaries of creativity and it gets outside of a particular rule of creativity. I'm all for that.
Pete Clark
Last movie you cried at?
Shane Hatton
Last movie I watched is gonna be a bigger question. Last movie, I cried it. I honestly can't remember. I can't remember the last one I cried in.
Pete Clark
Last movie you laughed at?
Shane Hatton
Oh, good question. I mean, I watch TV series in Brooklyn nine nine is a TV series that I watch. I just I laugh at it every single day.
Pete Clark
And then final question. What's one of the books that's changed your life?
Shane Hatton
Oh, there's a lot of one of the books that I love is actually The Moment Of Lift by Melinda Gates. And it changed my life in a good way because it just talks about some of the the real challenges that women around the world face. And as a self confessed, very white privileged male. It was a real benefit to my outlook on life to be more aware of kind of some of the global issues of women.
Pete Clark
Thank you, first of all, for your time. Secondly, your vulnerability and thirdly, as we talked pre this, I do this because I enjoy the conversations and I've thoroughly enjoyed this. I've also got some quite significant insights into it. So really appreciate that Shane,
Shane Hatton
It's such a privilege to get to talk to you. Anytime.
Pete Clark
Thank you Sir.
