Welcome to the Freedom Fridays Project. This week, I've got another guest. A relatively new colleague of mine, who I've connected with. And it's a fascinating story. Craig, welcome to the conversation.
Thank you very much Pete.
Thank you for being part of it. Now, Craig, I will start with our signature question, which is Freedom Friday is about moving from I have to choose to. Your's is a fascinating story. What's your big I have to, to I choose to?
It's moving out of the family home. So it's the house that I've been in, or the block of land I've been on for 30 years. The house I've been in for 20 years, brought up the children, all that sort of stuff. So in that process, I lost my wife. The park next door is named after her. And so yeah, so all the neighbours got together, there was two Annes in the street. Both Annes passed away in the same year. Both of them did lots and lots of community work. So they actually petitioned the council and the names board and had the park next to my house renamed as Anne's Reserve. So there's a huge emotional. But here I am rattling around like an empty nester, and my nest is empty. Do you know what I mean? Like it's four bedrooms, two bathrooms, three toilets, a huge kitchen, like two, three living areas and rooms.
Wow. I've not come across, I havn't been exposed to anything like that yet. I'm fascinated. At what point did you know you probably would have to move out? And then how long did it take you?
Yeah, it's funny because I don't have to move out. I could live there for the rest of my life. I could. But there was something eating at me that this is a waste of space. And I could do more with this. And even when my kids started leaving home, I kept on thinking eventually, I'm going to be left here alone and don't want to stay alone in such a big house? And so that started to eat at me about. so what's my next move? And do I really want to make a next move?
And what were the sort of elements that made you choose that? Because this is a perfect example of even more than I have to, to I choose to. This is I don't have to.
No, I don't have to. I'm still choosing to. So the elements, so of the things I thought of was - I got this, I got this big house, why would one person just live in it? Two, it takes me ages to clean it. And even if you take all the furniture out of the room and you close it off, it gets dusty. Then I've got empty rooms with nothing in it. I've got empty areas with nothing in it. Because as the kids moved out they took their beds and took they whatever. And so you look at it, you go why am I living in amongst this emptiness? And there's rooms I just don't use. I don't watch television much, but I do watch it when the Rugby League season comes around. And my youngest son was quite a television watcher and he left. And I didn't go into the television room for a couple of months. And when the Rugby League season started I went in there and the TV was covered in cobwebs. This was just a story to me going man, why are you living like this for?
So, can I make an observation? Do you think that's you rationalising at once you'd emotionally decided? Or was the rationale there and you had to emotionally get there?
The rational was there long, the rational decision was there and the most difficult thing was the emotion and the emotion came later. Because so i'd rationally go 'Yeah, eventually I'll move out'. And then I would agonise over whether I could.
Could being as in literally, physically, emotionally?
If I could emotionally, actually walk out the front door and not look back. And I'm still emotional about that very thought of walking out that door, closing that door. And, it's interesting. My eldest son, he, when I told him I was thinking of selling the house, he just said to me, yeah, you need to close this chapter in your life. You need to move on. You haven't moved on. But it's also very insightful, that he's saying you haven't moved on for all else that's going on in your life. And you actually need, to actually get out of that house and move on. So he saw it as I'm still clinging to the past. And so he was very sort of, analytical.
It seems pretty normal given the scenario that you've been facing, to hold on a little bit. And do you find that this analogy of it's a new chapter move on dad, that it's still the chapter of the same book?
It's in the same book. Absolutely. And so, but the thing is that then I felt almost like there was an external pressure, because people would say, to me are you still rattling around in that old house. Now what are you doing in there? And so I felt also this pressure of people going, what are you doing? I'm living. But I'm just living like I was when everyone else was there. Because they filled up all the other rooms.
Someone said to me recently that, in not dissimilar circumstances actually, they - a lot of which was based on their faith, religious faith, I don't know if you're a religious person or not. And they said, they came to the conclusion that they were better, respecting looking back, but prefered to live forward. Where are you on that spectrum of respecting looking back but willing to live forward?
Now I've shifted to the willing to live forward quite substantially. All right. But it wasn't until I could see what I could move forward to.
Okay, literally or just imagining it?
No, literally. I could imagine it, but I had to go and look at it. And so I was at dinner with one of my late wife's cousins. And he just said to me, when are you going to sell that house? And I went I dunno... and then he said, sell it and buy a nice little two bedroom in Manly and change your lifestyle entirely.
Did that plant a seed?
Yeah. So driving home from that lunch at his place that started rattling around inside my head. Do you mean? Like ping pong balls with a chain reaction, going ding, ding, ding, ding ding. And so then I started looking at units in Manly on real estate apps. And so then I went and had a look at some. Even before I spoke to real estate about selling my house. And it wasn't until I looked and saw, oh okay, I could live here. That I thought, I could leave there.
Right. So to leave there, you had to have a clearer picture. Literally or physically of what you were going to.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And I really needed that. And that actually helped me. And then there was like, it's sort of like the Epiphany. And you're talking about religion. I walked into the house late one night after working late. It was summer so the house wasn't cold. But I walked into this empty dark house.
So your perception had changed?
Yeah. And I said to myself, like, I said out loud to myself, 'What are you doing here?'.
That's a bit spooky. Do you think that's a sign of, because I know, as a new colleague, that you're emersed in the world of change in corporate. Is there any insight there about change that we have to make personally. Do you have to see it first, and then do you have to almost turn against yourself, that's the wrong expression, but almost play out load in your head, the rationale of what you've now just seen?
And I think in a corporate world, when you talk about change, and you and I work in behavioural change, quite often people can't change their behaviour unless they see what people want them to change to. And, not only that, you actually need to see the value in changing. So, like, so I went down to Manly. I had a cousin that was living there. So I started going swimming at the beach with him. Do you know what I mean, like so. So when Paul planted this seed in my head, so I went down there and suddenly thought, yes, I could live this. Rather than living in the burbs. But what I've got to give up is a garden and all those sorts of things. But then there's a compromise here, because I don't necessary have to give up a garden. I can have a garden on a balcony. And I've grown bonsais all my lifetime. I'm not going to leave my bonsais behind. So half of my garden I'll take with me.
Isn't that interesting? And what I'm hearing is, as we know our brain it's hard-wired, to find the evidence, to prove ourselves correct. And there's an assumption, this story, this narrative, which feels like the right story at the time, I can't leave here. I can't leave the family home until you had seen something different than your brain then starts to find the evidence to go or maybe I could. Do you remember or recognise the switch point?
No, I don't because I don't think there was a series of switch points. But I think part of that was, part of that journey was, I would go to my children's houses. And I saw, especially my eldest and my second eldest settled. So they're never going to come Suddenly you think, well, they're settled. And then when my youngest moved out, I went and saw where he was living. I thought he's very settled. And so suddenly, I'm thinking, well what am I holding on to? Because all that I'm really holding on to is the memories and they're not in that house. They're in me and everything I can take with me. But I was holding on for a long time, and I agonised. Like I can't tell you the amount of paralysing thought and moments I had just sitting in that property, thinking about man, could I walk out of here? Could I do this?
And there was a part of you that went - No.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah I can't do it. And I would add up all the things and go Ah, yeah, but I'll have to, I'd have to sell a furniture, I'll have to do this. And I'll have to do that. And I'd be living in a little two bedroom. And then when you rationalise that you think I'm only living probably the same space as a two bedroom unit anyway.
It's a separate, I think, I think it's a linked question. In that shift that you made from dad, and husband who lost his wife and dad of three boys. Have you shifted to it's now Craig? It's not Craig living his life. I'm still a dad. But now, it's how do I put Craig into the equation? So he can live his best life?
Yeah, that's exactly right. Because before that I was chief cook and bottle washer. And everything else in between? And so I took - well, two of them were still in high school, one went off to university. Do you know what I mean, so, and for a long period of time, they were all still living at home.
Yeah. So you felt a responsibility?
I felt a strong responsibility. And not only that, but I still have a strong responsibility to be a role model to them about things that I do.
Isn't that interesting. So the role modelling, the perception and type of role model has perhaps shifted?
Ah, look, I know I can never be a mother. But I can try and be as soft as possible, because the kids need a soft side. And I can ensure that that happens. But like, as a mature man, I got to a point where I thought, I would really like to go meet someone else. But then I had to think about how do I do that, and be a good role model to my kids because they were dating at the same time I was. Do you know what I mean? So when you start to think about the dynamics of those sorts of things. They're looking at me seeing what I'm doing. So how I respect another individual that I'm dating, has got to reflect on them. Because otherwise, if it's not they're growing up in a marriage, that was a happy marriage, but they're not seeing that. So there was all sorts of stuff like that then, to me, that adds to the richness of what's gone on in that house. So I think if my partner Anne was still alive, we probably would have shifted out of the there or she would have gone 'Yep over this. Come on, let's go - bang'. But there's so much, to me. there's so much richness of stuff that I had to sit and think hard about. What do I do next? And how do I do it the best way possible for these three to be really well balanced adults.
One of the reasons I asked the question was, my kids are a bit older now. And my wife and I, we're coming to the, I guess, the decade where we'll be empty nesters. And a lot of my friends in my age group are probably going through that too. And I wonder how they make the shift from mum and dad, to husband and wife again, or partner and partner. And I suspect a lot of people don't make that shift. They remain Mum and Dad. And whilst you'll always have that responsibility, you don't have it in the intimacy of home and so therefore the relationship struggles.
So I thought about how do I shift this? So I started to create little projects for myself. So some of the projects were let's list off a whole heap of suburbs that might be interesting to go and look at and let's go and spend a day in those suburbs. Go and do my shopping there. Go to a restaurant there. So let's drive to Cabramatta and do all my shopping, have a meal and come home. Let's drive to Parramatta, not Parramatta, Canterbury. Let's go and have a look. Do you know what I mean? Let's go to Bankstown? Let's go to Seven Hills.
Because you considered that place, or becuase you wanted a contrast?
No, I just want to contrast. And I just, I was working with people and would say, Where do you live? What's that like?
Did you have a hankering for Manly and the beach and wanted a contrast?
No, I wanted a project that got me out of the house. And I thought there's so much of this city I've lived in for a long time, but there's so many other places in it that I haven't seen. And so Auburn - let's go shopping in Auburn. Like it's a really interesting suburb, I love going to Auburn now. But I just thought let's pick a whole heap of different places and go and visit them.
Anyone who's listening, who doesn't live in Sydney, won't know any of those places. But essentially, you're going kind of next ring out and next ring out and next ring out of suburbs.
And they've all been influenced by different people who have chosen this country. They're not born here they've chosen this country to live in. And so they're hugely influenced by that. So that was one of my projects. And one of the other projects I set myself was, and I'm still working through this one, I'm I go out and take photos of pubs that I've been to, in Sydney. And then and then in a Word document, I'll paste the photo in the Word document, and write a little piece about why that pub was important to me or something that happened to me in that pub. And why I've gone and taken the photo and why this is one of my pubs in Sydney. But it means, it also means I can go and have a beer in them. But it's just, it's another thing that just gets you out doing something. And your kids can say, 'What are you doing, Dad?' I'm going out.
Did you do that deliberately to get you out of the house?
Yes, Yep.
Because it was just too tempting just to stay and be emersed in those memories?
Well, not only just that, it was when you've got teenage kids are getting older. During the week, they're there, but on the weekends, they're never there. And so it was, I just found I was there. So what am I going to do? I'm going on the beach, I can do this, I can do that. Or I can set myself up little projects. And so that's what I did it actually get me up. So Sunday afternoon, I'm going to whatever to photograph whatever or I'm going to do blah or on Saturday afternoon I'm going to go to Asquith.
Craig, I can speak to you longer abou this specifically because I think my wife and I will face this soon, too. But I'm also interested in, perhaps you helping those people that are listening who might want to make a big change. And using your specific example as a metaphor, plus with your background in change. With some of the things you said, what sort of tips could you advise people that if you're going to make a big change and go from I have to do to I choose to or even, I'm just choosing to. What sort of big rocks would you suggest they have to have in place to make it as feasible and as real as possible?
Well, I think you've got to, you've got to understand if there's an emotional part of this, you got to understand and sit with the emotion. Okay, so you sort of...
So not deny it?
No, don't deny it. But sometimes you can't force things to happen. So it's almost like the bridges model, you sit in the grey zone, the neutral zone. And like Bridges says that that's the most creative and that's the best place for you to sit, don't push it. And I found sometimes I'd push it. And the more I pushed it, the more I'd recoil back. And I'd go backwards, because I'm pushing myself too far forwards. When I stopped pushing, and just sat with the discomfort things started to become clearer.
The way I've heard that described is the difference between I'm trying to force something versus allowing. So what you're suggesting is, if you really sense you want to make the change, you've got to kind of allow it to happen. Or at least allow yourself to be in this gray or sort of whatever. As opposed to forcing it.
And it was I think, going out and having a look at units and that's the stuff. So going in an d actually having a look at and getting that physical. That's the rational. And it feeds into the emotion of 'Yes, I could live here'. But then I still had to sit with that discomfort until suddenly I thought 'Oh, no, no, I can see that'. Like, and then it was almost like, let's just go and make this happen. But this has been a good two-three year journey of sitting around, pondering, talking about it.
So it unfolds as opposed to just appears.
That's right. And you know, one of my kids who's very action orientated, continuelu just saying stop talking, would you just go and do it? Because he's not the sort that will talk a lot about stuff. And so you've got to sit there with that discomfort until suddenly.
So it sounds like you've given, there's insight there about some of the baby steps. About sitting with the discomfort. About being active in trying to gain, if not physical, an imaginative, or an imagined potential future. And you've got to go and explored some different ways to do that. Is there any other advice you would have for someone that's thinking about, and part of them wants to but part of them is still tied to the old? Would you rip the bandaid off or would you pull it off slowly?
Oh, look, I've always been sort of rip the band aid off sort of a bloke. But I think what you're got to do, I think you've got to be kind to yourself. So I think you've got to forgive yourself. Because at one point, I was beating myself up, like what do you mean? Like, I come through the front door and say, you still hear? Do you know what I mean, no, forgive yourself. You're here for a reason. So just be gentle with yourself. But I think the other thing is, I need to verbalise things. So talking about and getting other people's opinions and listening. And it wasn't until as I said that Cousin Ian has just said to me, why don't you do x? Now I could have taken it totally different and said don't tell me what to do. Yeah. But I just listened and thought, well, yeah, I suppose I couldn't do X. He like really just planted that seed.
I find that really interesting. My perspective would be your late wife's cousin, whether you said, don't talk to me, how do you tell me what to do? I still think potentially, the seed could have been planted anyway. I suspect, my personal view is, it probably grew quicker. Because you were open to it growing.
Yes, that's right. But when he said it was almost like a light went on inside my head. It was almost like the light bulb went on. And I went, oh, yeah, I probably could do that. That's not a bad idea. And suddenly, that's what I thought. Maybe I should go and have a look.
Right? Suddenly over two, three years.
Hey, yes, that's right.
I think that's informative, because they think the change happens, but that's actually a transition. Yes, transition. Yes we have the seed of an idea that germinates and starts to evolve and grow, and then suddenly, something happens, and we go from 49 to 51.
And you see, I've still got to get through to the letting go bit. I've got to actually walk out of there. Which I'll have to. So I'm almost at a point now because I'm like, when it goes and house goes up for auction, I forced the point.
And how do you think about that?
This is interesting. I wake up some nights absolutely wrecked with anxiety about whether I'll actually be able to clean all the rubbish I have in the place. And then I start to worry about what'll I do with this, and what'll I do with that? And the kids, they just say sell it. I go yeah, I suppose I should. So I'm now tripping over myself, in not making rational decisions. Do you know what I mean - but I really like that piece of furniture. Yeah, but you don't need that in a two bedroom unit. No, not really.
So you can constantly having this conversation with yourself.
Yeah, absolutely and with them. I mean, like because I'm, I rang two of them up on the weekend and said, I've got a garden shed. It's full of rubbish. But it's good stuff. What do you want? What do you mean? So you're gonna give it all away? Well, if you want it I may as well give it to you but there were no takers on anything. And so I'm surprised now I'm going to just sit with that and wait and see what happens. So that sense of trying to clear it all out. And I worry about that. And it's, it's minute in the grand scheme of things.
Whilst was technically and rationally, that's correct. There's this strength of the memory of the emotion, there's something. When I think, when people have to make significant changes now. It holds them back from doing it immediately because of the perceived loss of the momory.
That's right. And so it can play into my avoidance behaviour, of oh this is all too hard and the longer I leave this, the less likely it is going to happen. So I'm still going to say that I'm still working through the emotional bit of I've got to clean a few things out.
Without necessarily saying anything confidential, in working through the emotional bits, do you have any advice for anyone that wanted to do that? What would you advise someone - I need to work through the emotional bit I don't know how to.
Yeah, so what I do is, I name it. So I will wake up and I will say to myself, geez, you're really feeling quite anxious about this. So I will actually physically talk to myself about it. So why are you feeling so anxious about this? It's really only blah, blah, blah. So I will actually name it and talk to myself about the emotion. So okay, this is the way you're feeling at the moment. Is that good or bad? Well, it's probably not either. It's probably just is. So I have those sorts of conversations. In my house, out loud.
Given the change you're about to make, or the transition you're going through. Cause you've kind of made the change, you've decided. Are there any red flags that you would encourage people to avoid, if they really do want to go through with it? And you may not know if you really do until you've done it, but they're kind of considering and thinking, well, I'd like to get into this relationship, get out of that relationship, change jobs, move to this place, sell this, buy that, change this about something? Are there any red flags that you've observed - well if you go down that route well there's no way you're going to change.
Yeah, for me, it's when, if I look at all I need to do an entirety, it looks too much and it's too hard.
Okay, so if I really wanted to make it too hard, I just build up this big picture, this huge mountain of stuff that I've got to do, and it would just be too hard.
It's too hard. And so I'm now breaking it down to Okay, next weekend, I'm going to clean out x y z. And that's just one little patch. Clean it out, stop moving stuff. Week after next, I'll clean this out, and then it'll probably be right to sell. But to be honest though, it's now broken down, to a step at a time - do this, do that. Whereas before I used to look at it and go - What am I going to do with it? Like I said before, what am I gonna do with all this junk? How am I going to get rid of it all? Cupboards full of stuff. We used to have really big dinner parties because we had huge space for dinner parties. So I've got dinner sets like you would - I've got cupboards for the dinner sets, because we'd have 30 people in the house. So I mean, like, I don't need that. But it's still there. Because I've never done anything with it.
Couple of questions left for you Craig. Where you are now, compared to where you were two or three years ago. Would you advise the you of two and a half years ago anything different? Based on what you've experienced.
Yeah, I would have. I would have just told myself to settle. Don't worry about it, just settle down. Don't worry about it and just work through it. You know what I mean, stop getting all worked up about it.
So would you have made the decision quicker, or would you have put the house on the market quicker? Or has that been the right time, and it's the anxiety and the stress and worry that would have been alleviated?
I think it's the anxiety and stress and the worry that would have been alleviated. And I would have spent less time worrying about it just gone, yeah, the time will come and it'll be fine. So then there's a rational piece of it, you got a property, you want to maximise the value of the property. So if you look at what's happened in the property market since COVID. And then you've got actually houses have gone up significantly more in value than units. So there's also a rational piece of that, that also says in the back of head, you need to act now. But I got to the emotional point at the right time as well.
So that's interesting, you know, it might still have taken the same amount of time. But you wouldn't have given so much energy to the stress and the worry. But it may not have taken two years. And what you're saying now, and I'm hearing you say 'and that's okay'. The timings fine. But the energy I expand on the way through, I could have spent that elsewhere doing other things.
And beating myself up and self talk around not taking action, not facing into what's going on. Like the emotion of it all. You don't need that. So just relax and go, yeah, it'll all happen in as long as you want it to happen. You've decided, Okay, this is eventually what I'm going to do. So let's work towards it, and it will happen. But don't be beating yourself up and be kind to yourself. Don't will punish yourself on the way through
Well, you've kind of answered my last question, which was going to be if you've got advice, you know, three words, one sentence, one breath advice for someone who is considering - there either at the beginning, in the middle or close to making the call something big.
Yeah, be kind to yourself.
I think that's extraordinary, simple, yet profound advice for someone going through a big change.
Craig, I want to say thank you for bearing your soul a little bit. For sharing some insights and it's a big emotional thing for you to do it. So just really acknowledge that and saying, thank you very much for a conversation.
Thank you. Thanks
